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Sports Cars - The Definitive Discussion

531 messages,  Last post on Dec 08, 2007 at 6:35 PM

You are in the Coupes & Convertibles Forum.

What is this discussion about? Porsche 911, Chevrolet Corvette, Ferrari F430, Lotus Exige, Lotus Elise, Coupe

Messages Page 17 of 54

#160 of 531 Re: Boxster S [Mr_Shiftright] by habitat1

May 13, 2005 (7:47 pm)

Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (May 12, 2005 9:36 am)
First, in the event I gave the wrong impression, I enjoy this discussion and I would not take anything personally - as I hope you wouldn't.
 
Regarding "genetic material" in the S2000 and Boxster, I'm not as convinced as you. The S2000 is a ground up roadster that shares almost nothing in common with other Honda products, as best I can tell. Not that that is good or bad, it's just a fact. The Boxster, on the other hand, is the first "poor man's Porsche" in a long time that actually gets some respect from the 911 purists. Certainly a lot more than the 924, 944 or 968 ever did. Probably even more than the 928.
 
My ho-hum impression of the 2002 Boxster was based upon my sense that it was overpriced and underpowered. I was impressed with the steering and handling, but not the gearbox. Don't know which year S2000 you drove, but my 2002 was as good as anything I've driven, and that includes my friends 360. The 2000/2001 did have a grinding problem that was remedied for 2002, bu the short throw action has stayed fairly constant.
 
I still prefer sports cars that are high rpm, relatively low torque so that you can "wind them out". I wouldn't take a Corvette if one was given to me. It's engine would blow up just as a Ferrari started having fun.
 
To each there own, I guess. I'm going to try to get out this weekend to do some further test driving. Have a good one.

#161 of 531 In defense of the Vette... by ultimatedriver

May 14, 2005 (10:01 am)

How many people do you think would jump at the prospect of an 7000+rpm, small block V8?
 
We'll see when the ZO6 drops. Then you can make your allusions to Ferrari grandeur all you want as the 427 takes it's power past the F430 and stomps it's "relatively low" torque output.

#162 of 531 Just another perspective, not historical ... by starrow68

May 14, 2005 (12:08 pm)

There are very few Ferrari's out on the open track days I go to, however, the one's I've seen are usually noted as I go by with my stock engine, stock suspension, street tire, 2002 Corvette Coupe. If these are 'serious' drivers I just don't get it, I'm not that experienced. The last was a 355, don't know which model and when I got a Time Trial result of 1.34.6 the 355 was running 1.35's with more HP, similar torque and better tires, he was in the race group while I was running with street cars in the TT. The following day I got down to the 1.34.0 and he did turn in a 1.33.9 but just his tires should be worth 3-4sec per lap not to mention the suspenson and lower CG. I have no doubt there are Ferrari's that can pass me, but what is the cost of a 355 a couple years ago vs. the $45k cost of my coupe? I guess I just don't care if anyone is impressed when they see it parked. There was a nice white Ferrari at the supermarket this AM, parked the wife's Yellow '04 Coupe nose to nose, not too close. I did figure most of the SUVs would stay away.
Randy

#163 of 531 Wow.. by habitat1

May 14, 2005 (3:32 pm)

..talk about sensitive Corvette fans.
 
The fact that I wouldn't take a Corvette if one was given to me is purely subjective. I also wouldn't go to a Nascar event if Jeff Gordon invited me personally, but wouldn't mind a front row seat at a Formula 1 Grand Prix event.
 
The Corvette is definitely a contender for most horsepower for the buck. Not quite the bargain of the eco-box Subarus and Lancers that I've read about in other forums, but cheap thirills, nonetheless. Personally, I am probably never going to own an American car, at least not one from the big Three. I know all the arguments as to how they have improved in quality, fit and finish, reliability, etc., but they are still not up to my standards. And, if Shifty is permitted to voice a preferencefor the "feel" of German over Japanese, I'll voice my preference for the looks and feel of German and Japanese over American. I have yet to see an American car that wowed me with its ergonomics and crisp style. Not that everything European or Japanese is perfect, for sure, but they are generally a lot closer to my stylistic preference.
 
As for the Corvette vs. the 430 in performance, might want to check that one again. I'll bet the road tests confirm my suspiscion that the 430 will get to 120 mph before the Corvette gets to 100. But my preference isn't for maximum terminal velocity, but how the car feels at sub-sonic speeds.

#164 of 531 Same here starrow by ultimatedriver

May 14, 2005 (3:48 pm)

I, too, run my vehicle at open track days and am a bit surprised to see much higher cachet cars breathing my exhaust. I spent an hour after last month's event trying to figure out why I was pulling off consistently better times than an '02 Acura NSX that was running the same trial.
 
I talked to the driver/owner and (after complimenting me on my vehicle's setup) he told me that he just couldn't find the "sweet spot" of the C32A DOHC bent six under the cover of his car.
 
Even though there are a lot of factors that allow sports cars to truly perform, these factors can also limit them at some tracks. Fortunately for me, the short wheelbase of my car (with stickier Kumhos on all 4 corners) allowed me to thread the twisty bits without much negotiation whereas he needed to basically throttle steer his way through. I'll be the first to admit that my car isn't big on low end torque, but the gearing and engine speed freed from the lightened valvetrain made up for it in this instance.

#166 of 531 I doubt that, habitat by ultimatedriver

May 14, 2005 (4:11 pm)

The Z06 is not to be underestimated. Let's give them a mile (just like motor trend did in 2001) and I'm sure the result will be the same. The Z06 will undoubtedly be the victor. Not taking anything away from the new Ferrari, but the Z06 will take it in at least acceleration, if nothing else.

#167 of 531 sports cars by xkss

May 14, 2005 (7:09 pm)

I still prefer sports cars that are high rpm, relatively low torque so that you can "wind them out". I wouldn't take a Corvette if one was given to me. It's engine would blow up just as a Ferrari started having fun.
 
7,000 rpm isn't that bad for a sports car. The 505 hp LS7 in the new Z06 IS built to last, for performance, and to thrill.
 
One awesome sports car is the Saleen S7. Unlike many supercars today, the S7 is raced (in the American Le Man Series).
 
I hope GM learns a lot from the 2006 Pontiac Solstice like the fact that great steering feel counts.
 
Another sweet sports car is the Panoz Esperante. It has an aluminum chassis and is raced BY THE FACTORY unlike too many sports cars today. Panoz has a passion that is hard to find in other car companies today.
 
Germans cars don't have the build quality that they used to have just a dozen years ago.

#168 of 531 Re: Wanna Bet, ultimatedriver?? by habitat1

May 15, 2005 (7:37 am)

Replying to: ultimatedriver (May 14, 2005 4:11 pm)
It's probably against Town Hall rules, but I'll give you even odds on any amount of money up to $100k (enough to buy you two Corvettes, if you win), that the factory Corvette will not beat the Ferrari 430 in a one mile straight run. If you are so sure the result will be the same as 2001, seems like you should take my offer.
 
Before you do, however, you might want to consider just how much more powerful the 430 is than the outgoing 360. According to Edmunds, the Corvette and 430 are within 20 lbs of each other in weight. The 430's 4.3 liter engine puts out 490 horsepower, 90 more than the Corvette's 6 liter. The Corvette does have 57 more foot lbs of torque, but, given the Ferrari's 8,500 rpm redline, it has a lot more room to wind out, before shifts. The lower torque is also easier to control off the line. I'm sure you are aware that the average Formula 1 car has less torque than the 430.
 
Edmund's lists the current Corvette's 0-60 time at 5.2 seconds. If that's correct, that's about 0.4 seconds behind a $50k M3 and a 4,000 lb M5. And light years behind the couple of early 430 tests I've read that were in the 3.8 second range. Even the Porsche 911 S which I am considering, at only 355 horsepower, beat the Corvette in a recent head to head acceleration test by one of the car magazines. The gobs of torque advantage that the Corvette had could not be put to the ground with nearly the efficiency and effectiveness of the rear engine 911. When it came to handling the twists and turns, the Corvette was even further behind the 911.
 
The Ferrari 360 was, IMO, a great car. But the 430 is leaps and bounds above it in power. My friend with a 360 has test driven a 430 and admitted the difference is astounding. If any $190k car can be considered a a good deal, the mere 10-15% more that the 430 costs than the former 360 is indeed a relative bargain.
 
So, take my bet if you remian confident. But be assured, I wouldn't be wagering the price of a 911S if I wasn't equally confident and had done some research to back it up. I would also accept a friendly wager of a couple of beers, if that is more appropriate to the spirit of Town Hall rules.
 
P.S. On a sad note, I don't think any of the top 100 executives at GM care about our debate. They are desperately trying to keep the company afloat. As Jim Cramer of CNBC's "Mad Money" said, if Kirk Kerkorian hadn't stepped in, the next call from GM would have been Dr. Kevorkian. From my business associates who know Ferrari, they claim that everyone there is passionate about one thing - building the best race cars and sports cars in the world. Their management doesn't have unfunded pension liabilities or skyrocketing employee health care costs occupying 90% of their workday. I feel somewhat sorry for the pickle GM finds itself in, but I predicted it nearly 30 years ago when I bought my first Datsun while my parents' hard earned money was being pissed away on excessive repairs and maintenance on GM products.

#169 of 531 I wasn't talking C6... by ultimatedriver

May 15, 2005 (1:36 pm)

I'm completely aware that the F430 would walk away from a C6 in any acceleration test. I was, however, referring to the Z06 version of that model. There's no doubt in my mind that at the end of a mile the Z06's nose will be the one poking past the Ferrari's. It may not be by much, but since we're comparing stats, let's compare stats shall we?
 
As far as the engines go and how they make their power, we're dealing with a 7.0 liter pushrod V8 that makes 500bhp6200rpm and 475lb-ft4800. Ferrari is packing a 4.3 liter DOHC flat crank V8 that achieves 483bhp8500rpm and 343lb-ft5250. The two employ dry sump lubrication. Both of these engines are wonderful designs that both benefit from trickled down racing technology from F1 in the case of the Ferrari, and Le Mans in the case of the ZO6.
 
Taking a look at the chassis of both cars gives us two different means to a common end, low weight and a high degree of stiffness. The 430 rides on an all aluminum chassis and double wishbones at all four corners. It has optional carbon ceramic brakes which, when coupled with it's outstanding weight distribution, will undoubtedly give it the edge in the braking department. The ZO6 differs from the standard coupe by having an aluminum/magnesium chassis wrapped in a carbon fiber/fiberglass body. It rides on transverse leaf springs suspended by Sachs monotube shocks (ready for the track!). The Vette houses vented brakes 14" and 13.4" front and rear, respectively.
 
In the tire department, the F430 houses nineteen inch wheels, 7.5" in front, and 10" out back. The ZO6 uses an identical diameter wheel/tire package that lays 10" in front and a full foot of rubber in the rear.
 
As far as getting down the track, I don't think the ZO6 will be that off. If the staff of Motor Trend knows anything about launching sports cars and collecting data, then the base C6 Coupe is 6/10ths off of the Prancing Horse's time through the quarter mile with 5.8 mph separating them (which is due to the difference in horsepower). I'm sure the ZO6 will improve on the base coupe's times significantly.
 
As a counterpoint (like we need anymore of those), torque control has absolutely nothing to do with the actual output. It's the access to that torque (read clutch smoothness) along with a suspension design that more properly controls how the torque reaches the rear wheels. Tire compound is also a factor in achieving quick, consistent times. This is what I've come to discover since I began drag racing.
 
I don't drink, so a beer is out of the question. However, if I happen to see you on a racetrack one of these millenia, our wager will have been settled regardless of the victor. I think that would be more appropriate to the spirit of Town Hall rules.

Messages Page 17 of 54

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