Last post on Dec 09, 2013 at 3:18 PM
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#9556 of 10048 Re: $750 for buying a manual [nippononly]
Dec 08, 2012 (5:11 am)
No, the turbo engine with the DSG was delayed availability. All three engines are slated to have optional clutch pedals (the 2.4L isn't available yet). Maybe if they make an SRT version, though I wouldn't blame them if they used the DSG.
#9557 of 10048 Re: ? $750for buying a manual [elias] ?
Dec 09, 2012 (10:18 am)
ah yes, of course, misread the thread re dodge dart.
indeed if Jag were to offer the incentive it would be $7500 not $750 .
What sort of incentives does Aston offer, just for pip pip wink wink nudge nudge say no more?
#9558 of 10048 looks like BMW is forgetting
Dec 09, 2012 (2:53 pm)
how to build a good manual, judging by these comments in this month's MT:
I wish we'd gotten the 8-speed automatic in our long-term 328i...The shifter feels like it's made of rubber, and it snaps into gear like the latch on a microwave door. It doesn't feel particularly mechanical and it doesn't really like being hurried
I get some affirmation of my own opinion from this, as I drove the new model and couldn't understand why everyone praised BMW for such an average-feeling stick. Give me a Honda shifter any day - there's a company that is still making their sticks with care, even as they let a lot of other stuff go to pot.
I also noticed this commentary in the MT review, which perfectly puts into words my frustration with my new Toyota, as they clearly have the identical problem with their BMW:
The bigger issue is BMW's electronic throttle pedal. It feels completely disconnected from the engine, like a video game steering wheel and pedal combo. There's a lag in throttle response when you first tip into the pedal that's frustrating when trying to engage the clutch. It's even more infuriating when you're trying to rev-match your downshifts smoothly. It makes the engine slow to rev, and the relationship between pedal travel and engine rpm is non-linear, making it difficult to get the revs you want.
And just try to move the car both quickly and at short notice - makes you look like a manual-shift novice.
I would fear that throttle-by-wire will ultimately be the manual transmissions' undoing, except that in my Subaru it does not behave this way. But something that worked so well I took it for granted when throttles were still operated by a cable is on its way out, and since it has such a profound effect on my ability to enjoy using the stick, it is something I am going to have to be much more careful about when I test drive cars in the future.
Trust the auto industry to take something basic and screw it up by introducing needless new technology to it.
#9559 of 10048 Re: looks like BMW is forgetting [nippononly]
Dec 10, 2012 (3:28 am)
Interesting, you have me wondering if BMW uses a different set up in the M3 vs. 328/335. When I test drove one a few weeks ago, it was pretty good - much better than the 535i manual I tested several months ago. Shorter, crisper throws and good throttle response/control. Still not 911 quality, but a lot better than the MT reviewer is indicating on the 328.
If it wasn't for a weak clutch, my former S2000 would have been neck and neck with my 911 in manual transmission quality. An even shorter throw, very precise. Unfortunately, even though it had half the torque of the 911, I could occasionally induce clutch slippage at high rpm shifts. I never drove anything other than a Porsche that had a better feeling manual transmission than that S2000. Even my 2004 TL has a better gearbox feel than the 535i did.
#9560 of 10048 Re: looks like BMW is forgetting [nippononly]
Dec 10, 2012 (7:14 am)
DBW ( so called drive by wire) has been here (for least 10 + years) and is here to stay. There probably have not been major issues- a lot of complaints from M/T drivers, simply because we are in the minority position. (I have read in passing the M/T population is app 20%.)
TMI would be this technology was adapted decades ago from aircraft technology. HUD or heads up display might be another example. (still in an even smaller minority of vehicles)
I started to notice this (interface difference) in a 2003 Jetta TDI 5 speed. (10+ years ago and 179,000 miles ). An additional variable to factor in (a good thing, but an irritant with an advantage) is the no fuel draw with no throttle (in gear) or down shifts with no throttle input.
I didn't have any "rubber band feeling" or issues double clutching or more importantly declutching in a 2001 6 speed manual T56.
#9561 of 10048 precise computer controls make meeting emissions
Dec 10, 2012 (7:22 am)
It happened so that precise computer controls make meeting emissions and fuel-economy goals more straightforward; they can protect against driver behavior that can result in warranty claims, plus the market long ago showed it preferred automatics.
And in raw performance, there is less and less measurable advantage for manual transmissions.
#9562 of 10048 Re: precise computer controls make meeting emissions [drevs]
Dec 10, 2012 (8:00 am)
The majority of the buying public (owners choosing A/T when there are multiple transmission options) , have obviously voted with their pocket books.
However from the minority view (6 speed manual owners, who have voted also with their pocketbooks and from by definition a more arcane view) there are and remain HUGE and multiple advantages.
#9563 of 10048 Re: precise computer controls make meeting emissions [ruking1]
by Stever@Edmunds HOST
Dec 10, 2012 (8:03 am)
Yeah, but if you cut to the chase, it's the fun factor.
That's the part the manufacturers should be selling.
Assuming they want to sell cars to people who like driving cars, which is another assumption that's not writ in stone.
#9564 of 10048 Re: precise computer controls make meeting emissions [ruking1]
Dec 10, 2012 (8:08 am)
I'm just glad more options are becoming available. Though I find myself wondering why DCTs don't seem to be getting the mileage of manuals, when they really should be.
CVTs are a great concept for both efficiency and power, on the other hand. Someone just needs to figure out how to make one feel sporty.
With all these alternatives out there, classic manuals are going to have a hard time hanging on. Classic automatics might even have trouble unless they're designed by Mazda apparently.
#9565 of 10048 Re: precise computer controls make meeting emissions [steve_]
Dec 10, 2012 (11:03 am)
For those of us who live in congested areas full of nitwit drivers who wouldn't be allowed behind the wheel if there was any justice, the "fun" is a rarely seen event. Going from negligently timed light to light, never getting above 35mph, stuck in backups, hills, dodging errant idiots, etc...I'll let the car handle things.