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The Future Of The Manual Transmission
Last post on May 21, 2013 at 10:35 AM
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#9397 of 9926 Re: - [wwest]
by kyfdx HOST
Sep 21, 2012 (4:38 am)
No stats to back me up.... but, I think 911s have gone over, as well...
I bet over 50% are PDK/Tiptronic..
Just check a dealer's new car inventory....
#9398 of 9926 Re: the only clutch [nippononly]
Sep 21, 2012 (5:11 am)
As for replacing manual transmissions, it's all but unheard of isn't it? Sure, there is the rare car that gets over the 200K mark and the synchros wear out, but that is statistically a lot rarer than an automatic that stops functioning by that mileage, and gee whiz with the manual you can just skip the worn-out gear and keep driving it if it comes to that....can't do that when the automatic stops shifting.....
While I've never had to swap out a clutch myself in any of the cars I've driven, I do know that the '92 Subaru Legacy I inherited from my FIL needed to have it's clutch replaced not long after I gave the car to my son as a HS graduation gift.
The Legacy had about 140K miles at the time. I drove the car sparingly for a few months before driving it from CO to CA (1100 miles) to give to my son. Taught him the basics of driving a stick, but only a few months later I heard that the clutch needed replacing.
I never noticed any problems with gear changing, so I wonder if the abuse of a new driver put it over the edge.....
Sep 21, 2012 (6:00 am)
I would agree that there was no place in a 911 for a Tiptronic automatic (that was often referred to as "Chick-tronic", which is an insult to my wife and 17 year old daughter).
The PDK is a slightly tougher call. Porsche's newest PDK is generally regarded as the best on the market (i.e. better than Ferrari, way better than everything else). In the hands of a professional driver on a track, it allows them to keep both hands on the wheel in high speed turns at high G's. I experienced something like this first hand in the back seat of an M3 at BMW's Performance Delivery Center two weeks ago. I would have liked to see how an M3 with manual transmission would have compared as the driver accelerated at 30 mph out of a sharp turn to 130+ on an slight uphill straight and then slammed on the brakes to dive into a 150 degree downhill right turn and into the next straight. I was fully occupied in the back seat trying to keep my eyeballs in their sockets. I don't think I would have done too well in the drivers seat with only one hand on the wheel. On the other hand, I have a neighbor who is a highly accomplished amateur club racer (Porsche) and he claims he would still take a manual for the "heel-toe" shifting ability that no DCT -including the PDK - has been able to electronically match. So which is "better" appears to be personal and subjective. Given that I have never given myself a nosebleed or lost an eyeball in the footwell, I'm sticking with my right hand and left foot for everyday (albeit slightly enthusiastic) driving pleasure.
#9400 of 9926 Re: - [wwest]
Sep 21, 2012 (6:47 am)
Yes, it was VERY clear what you SAID.
It was also clear what I said.
... I understand that 75% of 911's and Porsches in general are A/T/PDK's. This by default leaves M/T 25%...."
I even addressed what you said. So what about what you SAID didn't you think that I understood? I just put it in over all "Porsche" context. You don't like that? Then ignore or address it. But then you ignored the context, which is fine.
More to the point, you ignored the part about most (75%) 911's being A/T. Then you later claim, I didn't understand what you said. The truth imight be more, you didn't understand what I wrote. Or you didn't like me actually SAYING 25% (MINORITY) of 911's are M/T. By default, 75% (MAJORITY) are automatic.
Sep 21, 2012 (7:34 am)
An article in early 2012 indicated a 78% take rate on the PDK over manual transmission on the new 911: http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012/02/porsche-911-manual-transmission-phase- d-out-maybe.html.
However, according to a couple of Porsche sales managers I have talked to, this was skewed by the fact that almost all of the initial cars delivered to dealerships for the 991 introduction events were PDK's and dealers couldn't even order the 7-speed manuals until after the initial introduction. At the dealerships I have been checking in our area, it appears that PDK's account for anywhere from 50 to 70% of their new 911 inventory. If I have some time to kill, I will do an actual statistical analysis, as I am more interested in facts than guesses or fourth hand information. Unfortunately, I don't know how to factually verify this, but according to the sales manager that invited me to a track event this Sunday, approximately 50% of the 911's that he custom orders are 7-speed manuals. They never make it to the website inventory.
#9402 of 9926 Re: Porsche 911 [habitat1]
Sep 21, 2012 (7:58 am)
Yes, I have found that kind of information is about as available as hen's teeth. Either that or it is specifically designed to evade "google type" searches. So in lieu of actual manufactures published data (if in fact they do publish it) most are guesses. So even if you are spot on about those custom orders, the effects are probably not even measurable.
Even the 20% passenger vehicle fleet M/T figures is a guess. (80% being some sort of A/T) 257.5 M P vehicles, 2010 figures.
GM for whatever reason was a little more transparent about the 5773 unit 2001 Z06 production. 100% were 6 speed manuals.
#9403 of 9926 Re: Porsche 911 [ruking1]
Sep 21, 2012 (8:04 am)
I'd be very surprised if even 10% of new passenger vehicles sold today are M/T's. I haven't been to a Chevy or Ford dealership lately, but even the Honda dealership that I bought my former S2000 at didn't have a single Accord manual transmission to test drive when a friend was shopping there last month. Only one DC area Acura dealer has any 6-speed manual TL SH-AWD's in stock in the past year, and at 2-3 units, represent well less than 2% of their TL inventory.
Somebody posted a link a few months ago to "10 cars you didn't know you can get with a stick" that was pretty interesting:
TL SH-AWD: 5% (does not include TL FWD in denominator, where all are A/T)
Audi A5: 10%
Buick Regal: Less than 10%
Hyundai Tucson: 1.5%
Lexus IS: 1.5%
Mazda 5: 6%
Porsche Cayenne / GTS: 1.3% and 7.2%
Subaru Outback: 10%
Toyota Camry: 3%
VW Tiguan: 1.8%
To which I would add my favorite car, dollar for dollar:
Honda S2000: 100% (as it should be)
#9404 of 9926 Re: Porsche 911 [habitat1]
Sep 21, 2012 (8:16 am)
Nice to see a high take rate for Subaru manuals, and that's a 6 speed, too.
I bet Forester is similar and Impreza is much higher (including all WRXs).
#9405 of 9926 Re: Porsche 911 [habitat1]
Sep 21, 2012 (8:52 am)
I think in that sense the Germans oem VW takes the lead, with the VW moniker offering almost all its models with a stick. Passat is the midsize, albeit BIG sedan, Jetta, Golf, NB, Tiguan and I probably left off a few. I know for a fact the US market Touareg is NOT offered in M/T. Again most to all STANDARD with a M/T. Now I am sure they tailor the M/T vs DSG/ A/T so they can sell any to all. (try to get to ZERO the cars that will not sell because of M/T)
That is probably why it was left off that "top 10 list."
In regards to the over all 20% M/T passenger vehicle fleet (app 51.5 M of 257.5 M) , it is probably fair to say that as long as the replacement M/T percentage is slightyly greater than the SALVAGE percentage of M/T equipped vehicles ( I have read in passing that industry averages are pegged between 7 to 7.5%), then the population of M/T should be pretty stable. In that context, the average age of the fleet is now going on 11 years old. Average yearly sales are a (low) 9.5 M to 14.5 M (high or "good year")
#9406 of 9926 manuals CVTs and MPGs
by steve_ HOST
Sep 21, 2012 (2:33 pm)
In a WSJ article, there's this "like for like" comparison.
"With the five-speed manual tranny, the Crosstrek returns a rated 23/30 mpg, city/highway, as compared with 25/33 for the car with the CVT."
From reading the review, you'll be happier paying more at the pump.
Sorry, Can't Hear You Over the Subaru Crosstrek