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Automotive News & Views The Future Of The Manual Transmission
5809 messages, Last post on Dec 03, 2009 at 12:30 PM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Personally, I don't care if DSG or SMG or whatever they come up with next is faster or more efficient or just cooler to tell your friends about. I enjoy driving a car with a stick and a clutch pedal. It's part of the fun of driving a sporty car. I don't care if it takes me 300 milliseconds longer to execute a downshift. I don't have a stopwatch running when I am in my car. I think the DSGs of the world are mostly marketing devices. I'd bet the vast majority of them will be used in full auto mode virtually all the time. The people who buy them really don't want to shift but like being able to tell their buddies that they got the DSG because it shifts faster than any human can work a an MT. Present company excepted, of course. 
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Replying to: fredmcmurray (Mar 18, 2005 12:58 pm) I don't doubt that but I'm pretty sure a DSG-type shift would be an advantage for the person active autocrossing or tracking his car. In the long run I'd rather have that than a TC-based autobox and the time will come soon when those will be the choices for new car buyers. |
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"I don't doubt that but I'm pretty sure a DSG-type shift would be an advantage for the person active autocrossing or tracking his car." I agree with that, especially for an occasional track driver. When I was driving the road course at California Speedway in the IS, I was so busy trying to keep the car on the black stuff, the last thing I needed was to be worrying about shifting and heel and toeing. I didn't even use the shift buttons on the steering wheel. The old slush box seemed to be in the exact right gear at all times with no input from me. So, I guess my opinion is the exact opposite of the race car driver that Shifty usually quotes who said that there was no reason for anything other than an automatic on the street (don't remember which one it was). On a track, it's all I can do to manage the steering, brakes and gas pedal but on the street where I'm not pushing any limits, I'd rather shift myself. |
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I use them little buttons in my IS all the time on back roads, Fred. They work pretty good. Wish there was a whole lot more backroads out there. Ain't never been on no track with 'em though. All y'all can push pedals with your left all you want. I'll see you later at the BBQ...
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true sports enthusiasts want the newest fastest thing out there. Look what happens when the paddle shifter on a F-1 or WRC car fails and they have to be shifted manually? It is like they tossed out an anchor on the manual third pedal, and they still have the sequencial shift. So the Uber enthusiast is pulling for the paddle and the uber commuter is pulling for automatics so it is a smaller and smaller market demanding a third pedal. Any of us that spent a lot of time on a motorcycle can assure you that you can't shift a dog leg half as fast as we can a straight shifter. The argument that they are more sporty than a automatic only holds true until someone says they don't care if a sequencial is quicker they aren't in it for maximum sport. I wonder what answer you would get from any driver in F-1 or ALMS or WRC if they wanted to give up their paddle for a third pedal? As far as trends go? Isn't ABS, Skid control, cornering control and traction control becoming more common? I don't believe my Healey had any of those and I loved that little car. I couldn't get anything like it today no matter how much fun it was to drive. Times change and driver seem to be changing with them. |
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I believe those to be valid points except with gear control/selection. With a manual tranny I can tell it exactly what gear I want, when I want it and how quick/fast I want it to engauge. Even with the latest "shiftable" automatics, you do not have that level of control on the fly. Most of the time I shifty fairly quick, but of course that is a little "rougher" for passenger comfort. When I have someone else in the car, I tend to shift slower and smoother. When I've got to scoot in a hurry, I slam through the gears. Some times you need a combination of those types on the fly. Well, while such fine grained abosolute control is not readily available from manufacturers currently, it's not only possible, it's already there in the aftermarket for automatics. Gear selection can be fully manual, doing away with all electronic controls for example, and gear engagement (valve body pressure) can be simply modulated with throttle position or be fully programmable with selectable settings--not quite as dynamic as with a clutch I agree, but still configurable nonetheless.
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I s'pose that is theoretically possible but there's little evidence in the real world and the seat of my pants tells me there's some power being lost in the translation thru the TC. Word is the DSG is more efficient than either a manual or TC Auto. Porsche will be next to adopt this type of gearbox (built by Borg Warner), others will not be far behind. If it's locked, there really shouldn't be that much loss. The only extra loss I'd think would come from the friction and inertia (though not really a loss if you measure hp statically) of gears against each other. So perhaps with a large number of gears, the auto can be significantly more lossy. But I've been told by a tuner who has done this himself for example, a built Ford AOD is within a couple percent of a manual in a mustang. HOWEVER, by seat of the pants experience I assume you mean while accelerating right? If so, then most likely that would be while the converter is unlocked. You can change that yourself though. I wonder why most companies don't lock it up after reaching stall speed--I guess it's for durabilty. Secondly, you also have to keep in mind the difference in gear ratios when you're doing a seat of the pants comparison.
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Replying to: jimveta (Mar 23, 2005 8:08 pm) How?
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Hey Gang, I just found this discussion. I like it. My goal is not to be the last stick shift driver on earth, it is however to insure that my kids (and maybe even their kids) have the opportunity to stir their own. Having just made that statement, my eight year old daughter had a stroke when she was born that left her "Hemiplegic" (partially paralyzed on her left side). Through lots of therapy she has managed so far to grow up fairly normal and unless you know what to look for, most folks don't even know that she has a problem. Regarding her driving a stick, my guess is that she has about 50-50 odds of being able to do it, assuming that she keeps progressing as she has been. If I do manage to teach her how to drive a manual, and if she decides to stay with it, the amount of therapy for her entire left side that just driving would provide for her will be completely invaluable. Needless to say, I'm obviously preparing myself for a long (and hopefully not too painful) teaching process, which I will probably start in an empty parking lot when she is about 14. Then again, there is my eleven year old son, who has the attitude of, "You sit me in the left seat, and I'll learn the damn thing in an hour." -Tear!- Best Regards, Shipo |
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Replying to: andys120 (Mar 24, 2005 6:29 am) Also, you can "add" TC lockup to trannies that normally didn't have them like GM's 3-speeds, that you can manually engage, again just like you can manually shift gears, or have some electronic unit to control it; see http://www.api-racing.com ("add" is somewhat of a misnomer.. more like "redesigned in"). |
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