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Automotive News & Views The Future Of The Manual Transmission
5777 messages, Last post on Nov 07, 2009 at 8:06 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Replying to: nippononly (Jul 03, 2009 10:35 pm) I do think that the death knell has now been sounded for the slushbox, which will be replaced by DGSs in expensive applications, and by CVTs in cheap ones. I agree with that as well but I also think the three-pedal manual will also be replaced by the DSG or CVT except for narrowly focused track sports cars like the Ariel Atom and Caterham Seven or perhaps retro excercises like the Morgans |
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Replying to: wwest (Jul 03, 2009 9:15 pm) The truth is, CVTs are an answer to a question very few folks ask, and for my part, if a car is sporting a CVT, I won't even bother considering it.
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Replying to: shipo (Jul 04, 2009 4:29 am) No, but there is ONE exacting POWER setting for each situation that will return the OPTIMUM FE. Look at it this way, suppose you could design the ECU control software to continuously SEARCH for the POWER POINT that results in just the TINIEST level of detonation and then adjust the engine POWER to be just a tad above. A CVT would be the ONLY solution to that "equation".
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Replying to: wwest (Jul 04, 2009 6:34 am) Like I said, naive... I don't care whether you believe me or not, look it up for yourself. If any given vehicle requires say 30 hp to maintain 70 mph on a standard day (i.e. 59 degrees Fahrenheit at sea level), then the engine needs to produce 30 hp, period, full stop, the end. If it made any more, the vehicle would go faster, if it made any less, the vehicle would go slower. Now, as for that 30 hp, if you look at the BSFC charts for the vast majority of engines on the road today, you'll see that producing that relatively small amount of power at pretty much any RPM between 2,000 and 2,300 will not change the amount of fuel required to generate that power by any measurable degree. Said another way, there is NOT one specific RPM that is exactly perfect for any given amount of power, at least in modern computer controlled fuel injected engines. Said still another way, CVTs have not, and will not prove to be any better from a fuel economy perspective than a well thought manual transmission. Like it or don't.
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Replying to: shipo (Jul 04, 2009 7:22 am) The old saw that a MT will always get better FE than a AT DHW anymore. (DWH = doesn't hold water; that sentence is Twitter eligible  ).
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Replying to: steve_ (Jul 04, 2009 7:53 am) Best regards, Shipo |
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Replying to: steve_ (Jul 04, 2009 7:53 am) 2009 Audi A4 FrontTrak (CVT): - Weight: 3,538 - Drive train: FWD - City MPG: 23 - Comb MPG: 25 - Hwy MPG: 30 2009 Audi Quattro 6-Speed Manual: - Weight: 3,605 - Drive train: AWD - City MPG: 22 - Comb MPG: 25 - Hwy MPG: 30 Funny thing, in spite of the fact that the A4 Quattro weighs more than the CVT equipped A4 FrontTrak, the only driving regimin where the CVT car eeks out any advantage is in the city circuit, exactly where the lighter drive train will make its fuel economy advantage most obvious. So, if the CVT was such a superior design compared to a manual transmission, one would expect the A4 FrontTrak to significantly beat the heavier, more mechanically complex (and by definition with more drive train loss) A4 Quattro. Long story short, I have yet to see any scientific evidence that shows that CVTs offer even a shred of benefit compared to a properly ratioed manual transmission from the fuel economy perspective. If someone out there has any verifiable science that proves the advantage of CVTs against all comers, I'd love to see it (but I won't be holding my breath).  Best regards, Shipo
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Replying to: shipo (Jul 04, 2009 9:06 am) It is funny how the CVT advocates almost ignore what happens in the real world. 1. There is little to NO history, as there are with manuals and certainly automatics. 2. there is an almost immeasurable population of CVT's in the passenger vehicle fleet. DSG's (in VW's anyway have gone through some Euro and US stumbling block issues) I think CVT's will take away market share from (slush box) automatics if oems are unable or unwilling to improve the ubiquitious "slush box" and there is a constant improvement effort for CVT's. So for another example, the 09 VW Jetta TDI posts 1 mpg BETTER for the 6 spd MANUAL over the 6 spd DSG. In many respects the DSG is almost a TOTAL waste for 3/4 drivers in my house hold. It also commands a $1,100 premium over NONE for the 6 spd manual. Truthfully I only use it for break in purposes and to understand and feel its workings. Sure it is a hoot when I feel like doing the F1 fantasy gig. .... Or as Billy Joel would say in an OCD "(NY) state of mind"  Now I also know (from past experiences) I can very easily get even better mpg out of a manual than I can from a DSG. |
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Replying to: shipo (Jul 04, 2009 9:06 am) Maybe we could track down some make/model aimed at fuel efficiency and compare notes that way. Something like a hybrid that's also available in a gasser stick? Like, ahem, the FWD 2009 Ford Escape stick (24 combined) vs the hybrid CVT flavor (32 combined). Now drop the 5 speed into the hybrid (where's Wwest - he could do that). My guess is that it won't get close to that 32. Unfortunately coupling a MT to the hybrid drivetrain probably isn't feasible, otherwise Ford could have used the parts bin, so I guess we'll never know. Oh, the 5 speed does beat the automatic FWD Escape by one mpg (combined). The MT is 2 mpg better in the city, same on the highway. |
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Replying to: nippononly (Jul 03, 2009 9:58 am) I completely agree. My theory is that the automakers don't want you to have to downshift while on the highway going up a hill. I'd welcome it, makes the drive more fun and saves fuel!
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