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Automotive News & Views The Future Of The Manual Transmission
5807 messages, Last post on Nov 26, 2009 at 7:20 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Replying to: nippononly (Jun 29, 2009 12:24 pm) The 500 Abarth will compete with the Mini Cooper S in the $25k+ price range. Think about it. These are premium small european cars, not economy cars. I bet the 500 costs a lot more than a Fit, for instance. That Smart's not cheap, nor is the Cooper. Once VW figures out a way to bring a car smaller than the Golf, we'll see Golf prices creep in to the $20s as well. Look at the Euro vs. Dollar values. To sell a Fiat 500 here for $12k, they would only be getting about half the Euros they charge for it in Europe, and that ignores the extra freight cost. My guess is the 500 will start at around $18k, like the Cooper.
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Replying to: ateixeira (Jun 30, 2009 7:38 am) 1. There are both Abarth and non-Abarth 500s in the proposal for U.S. sales. The non-Abarth has the driving characteristics and features of a Yaris, with the styling of a Fiat. If they price that one at $18K, they won't sell a single one. Maybe not $12K, maybe $14K, but you can count on it being cheap and as such, I am sure a 6-speed manual will be the standard transmission. 2. They are planning to build it in the U.S., so Euro vs Dollar will be muted in importance. |
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Replying to: nippononly (Jun 30, 2009 7:56 am) This is a european car. I'd compare to a VW New Beetle, perhaps, not a Yaris. Starting prices in the $17-18k range for the Beetle. By the way, I'm not saying they will sell well, in fact I don't think it will sell well at all, no matter the price. The USA has no nostalgia for the 500 like it did for the Beetle and Cooper. The 500 will have small niche appeal at best.
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Replying to: ateixeira (Jul 01, 2009 10:22 am) The best-selling Rabbit was the cheapo 2-door for 15 grand, and even THAT had more content than the 500 will! It is $14K or bust for the 500, IMHO. And as you say, there are good odds of "bust"! Think anyone will confuse it with the former Ford of the same name?! 
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Replying to: nippononly (Jul 01, 2009 12:21 pm) I think we'll get the higher-end versions that are fairly well equipped. We typically get only the biggest gas engine offered in Europe, while Europe gets 12 engine options, including 4 diesels, none of which will come here.  Make that the top 2 gas engines. One for the base car and the 2nd for the Abarth. I will be shocked if they bill it as an economy car. Surely they will chase the more profitable small/premium car segment. The Beetle is very old and way past its prime, plus it has not been updated. The first two years it was very successful, IIRC. |
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Replying to: nippononly (Jun 30, 2009 7:56 am) Anyone who has ever driven any Fiat would be surpised if that were so.. |
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"Here's a strong endorsement for CVTs, as they can turn even a heavy, all-wheel-drive wagon into a fuel-efficient family car. With the base 2.5-liter engine and the new CVT, the 2010 Subaru Outback is rated 22 mpg city/29 mpg highway." 2010 Subaru Outback Rated 24 City/29 Highway (Inside Line) 
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Replying to: steve_ (Jul 02, 2009 10:08 pm) This manual has the same problem a lot of manuals do these days - it needs to be geared taller. If the manual were geared so that it loped along at 2200 rpm at freeway speed, it would pull 29 mpg too. This engine is plenty torquey enough to handle that. Why Subaru and other manufacturers gear their manuals this stupid way these days is beyond me.
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Replying to: nippononly (Jul 02, 2009 11:34 pm) I understand that it's not torque that is most directly relevant to keeping a car moving at constant speed - instead the key metric is "road horsepower" - the # of hp used to keep the car moving at whatever speed. So with respect, until we get some current data, I'll tend to trust the choices from Subie's engineers who use actual data to optimize mpg & performance of their cars. Possibly on some Subie forum there are mpg reports from folks who have swapped a transmission gear to get a taller top gear? |
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Replying to: nippononly (Jul 02, 2009 11:34 pm) This manual has the same problem a lot of manuals do these days - it needs to be geared taller. If the manual were geared so that it loped along at 2200 rpm at freeway speed, it would pull 29 mpg too. This engine is plenty torquey enough to handle that. Why Subaru and other manufacturers gear their manuals this stupid way these days is beyond me."... I think this really hits the nail on the head (from a consumers point of view) . This is not to discount the almost rabid (some say cult like) Subaru following !!?? I just don't count myself among the faithful. This is also NOT to vilify Subie engineers choices for the offered products. To answer another poster, (Elias) the data is there. It is just not presented in such a way as to be easily inspected, compared, graphic 'ed, etc. So for example on a 03 VW Jetta TDI, 2,950 #,  2,800 rpms in 5th gear I'd be trolling for a ticket (in a 65 mph zone) at 90-95 mph, except on I 40 E/W in TX. (GOD bless TX !!) I would also be looking at 48/50 mpg !!?? Don't try this at home  The other way to look at it is 65 mph, I would be looking at 58-60 mpg. (I am not sure of the rpms) A rule of thumb is for every +/-100 #'s a delta (change) of 1-2 mpg. On the VW (www.TDIclub.com) forum there is plenty of information on the .658 /.681 gear (5th gear) swap. Most information points to an 11% RPM drop in 5th gear due to the change. On an engine with a 5,100 redline, 11% drop would be app -500 rpms (561 actual) One can easily do a search on that site. To put this in context, the above 03 VW TDI (Jetta in this example) was put on the European market with bigger injectors (.205) AND a 6 speed manual. What came over to the US market were smaller injectors (.184) and a 5 speed manual. The scuttle butt is the bigger injectors and 6 speed manual can easily clock more speed, torque and more importantly in this example, 1 to 2 mpg better !!!! ??? While I am not complaining of 48/50 and 58-60 in the above scenarios, whats wrong with 50/52 and 60-62 mpg?? 
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