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Automotive News & Views The Future Of The Manual Transmission
5807 messages, Last post on Nov 26, 2009 at 7:20 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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sums it up quite nicely, in relation to a review of the new PDK in the 911 Carrera he was driving. Gritzinger from Autoweek: I really love the precision of a Porsche manual shifter and the smooth clutch action, so it's hard to embrace the PDK as long as I still have a leg to push a clutch pedal. Yes, it's quick and likely smoother than I could ever hope to shift, and I'd vote it the best of this new generation of transmissions so far. But, as with any of these gearboxes, the missing element is knowing the exact point of engagement. I still would prefer to handle that myself, so I know exactly when the engine will brake or when to pour more power. To which Hart adds: This was my first chance to operate the Doppelkupplung transmission, and I have mixed feelings about it. In automatic mode it's fine, but it's not spectacular.....I'm not sure the tranny is worth $4000, especially because I think the steering-wheel interface could be much better. $4000 EXTRA to take half the fun out of the thing? What are people thinking??? And hey, it's just one opinion but mine is that steering wheels should be for STEERING and GEARSHIFTS are for controlling the gears....
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Replying to: nippononly (Nov 29, 2008 11:58 am) You are a devoted man I must admit. I took a class on mechanical drafting in the 70s and I can remember how many of my class mates had designs of cars with single sticks, much like a fighter plane, for controlling a car. Some went on to design some for car shows. Many years later when I went into logistics and transportation I started buying equipment and I noticed that over the years the controls on "working equipment got more automated and simple as the years went on. Twin sticks gave way to electric and hydrolic buttons on heavy duty trucks. But my first view into how much my old class mates had predicted the future came a few year ago when I bought our first forklift with a joy stick. Way before toyota had regenerative braking in a car Yale, Clark, Nissan and the others had it on their forklifts. But the joy stick was a surprise to me. I then discovered that they have joy sticks to help some people with handicaps drive vehicles. So wheels don't need to be for stearing and sticks don't need to be for shifting. The human mind can invent a machine that can do that for us and that is what inventors do. Without them you would still find joy in riding a horse or steering as was intended with the first cars, using a tiller. Once we see more EVs and alternative vehicles who knows how we will shift or steer? |
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Replying to: nippononly (Nov 29, 2008 11:58 am) I have a manual truck I drive to work during the week, but frankly I would rather have an automatic. With the ever increasing number of 4-way stop signs, and red lights in this town, the constant shifting becomes a real pain. I take the car to work now and then, just so I can relax, and drink my coffee on the way to work. Sure, a manual can be fun, on those rare occasions when there is an open twisty road, and a little spirited driving is possible. But I think 95% of the driving public gets very few chances like that. Used to be, manuals were much cheaper. Not so much anymore. Used to be, manuals were much cheaper to repair. Not so much anymore, unless you can do it yourself, and avoid the high labor rate at repair shops. Used to be, a manual was more economical mpg wise. Not anymore. Many automatics get better mileage than their manual counterparts. Used to be, a manual had the performance edge. Not so much anymore. Used to be, a manual was more reliable. Not so much, with syncro problems, clutch problems, etc. they can be just as problematic. I see just as many complaints about manuals popping out of gear, or refusing to go in gear, as I do about automatic problems. IMO, manuals have lost their advantages, so I just don't feel the need to exercise my left foot, and right arm all day. I can easily affect the shifts on my automatic, by manipulating the accelerator pedal, and if I really want to choose a certain gear, I can do that with the automatic shifter, so what's the point? OK guys, I know the manual purists are itching to launch a counter attack, so fire away. 
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Replying to: elroy5 (Nov 29, 2008 8:37 pm) As for Used to be, manuals were much cheaper. Not so much anymore I disagree. The premium for an automatic is larger than ever, up to $1500 in some cases for a regular ol' crapbox TC automatic, and $4000 or more for some of the latest wonder trannies, AKA dual clutch autos. Used to be, manuals were much cheaper to repair. Not so much anymore, unless you can do it yourself, and avoid the high labor rate at repair shops Have you priced it lately? It's still hard to get a manual repair over $1500, many are under $1000. Try to get an automatic rebuilt for under $2500 - go ahead. Used to be, a manual was more economical mpg wise. Not anymore By coincidence I have owned both manual and automatic versions of my current 1.8L Matrix, and the same car with the same driver and the same driving patterns gets 15% better fuel economy with the stick than it does with the auto. For me that's several hundred dollars a year saved. Used to be, a manual was more reliable. Not so much, with syncro problems, clutch problems, etc. they can be just as problematic. Now I know you are just joshing.  OTOH, it is all too true that the large Hondas are becoming harder and harder to find on dealer lots with a manual - Accords, Elements, and of course CRV is going on its second year with no manual option.  But manual Fits and Civics? Dealer lots are teeming with those!
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Replying to: elroy5 (Nov 29, 2008 8:37 pm) Sure, a manual can be fun, on those rare occasions when there is an open twisty road Some of us have fun with manuals even in traffic. If you don't, so be it. I don't find "constant shifting" to be a pain at all. Used to be, manuals were much cheaper. Nippon addressed this, but in our Accords, the manual is still cheaper. Used to be, manuals were much cheaper to repair. Still true, manuals ARE cheaper to repair. And besides, they last longer than automatics. Used to be, a manual was more economical mpg wise. Since you monitor the Real World Accord Mileage forum here, you know that, in general, the manuals get better overall mileage. Because of the taller gearing, the automatics will sometimes get better highway mileage, but even that is rare. Used to be, a manual had the performance edge. I test drove an automatic and manual Accord when I bought my 06. There was no comparison. The auto was gutless compared to the stick. Used to be, a manual was more reliable. With my 95 Accord at almost 230k, you'll have a tough time making this argument with me. Everyone I talk to says the same thing. The manuals last forever. It's great that you prefer an automatic and there are some advantages for people who need/desire them but I disagree with what you've said here. 
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Replying to: nippononly (Nov 29, 2008 8:47 pm) An entire new transmission for my truck is $1100. Not rebuilt, but have-to-break-it-in new and shiny. A clutch kit? Seriously? $150-$200, tops. A mechanic can yank a trans, put in the new one and a clutch in an hour or two. Labor to replace a clutch or transmission on a RWD manual is a fraction as much as a FWD automatic. I got mine replaced and put together for $500 labor plus parts, which were another $600 in gears and so on(after 320K miles!). Also, if the thing starts to die again, you can baby it and coax it along for a year or more. An automatic just dies and sits like a rock. The last two that I had go bad on me(80-100K is common life now for a torque converter) died with 2-3 blocks warning. Working, working, rock that had to be towed out of the middle of the road. But the real advantage is that my truck gets the same performance out of a 4 as the exact same model does with the V6 and the automatic. Literally.
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Replying to: tallman1 (Nov 30, 2008 9:24 am) Nippon addressed this, but in our Accords, the manual is still cheaper. Accord coupe V6 auto, and Accord V6 6 speed, same price. Look it up. Used to be, a manual was more economical mpg wise. Since you monitor the Real World Accord Mileage forum here, you know that, in general, the manuals get better overall mileage. Because of the taller gearing, the automatics will sometimes get better highway mileage, but even that is rare. I'm not talking about some mileage forum, where people are inclined to stretch the truth (a lot). I'm talking about the official numbers on the window stickers, which I am more inclined to believe. Used to be, a manual was more reliable. With my 95 Accord at almost 230k, you'll have a tough time making this argument with me. Everyone I talk to says the same thing. The manuals last forever. Again, you are basing your conclusions on what other manual Accord drivers say (biased). Look at the Accord forums and you see a lot of posts about their manuals popping out of 3rd gear, and having trouble getting the problem solved. If you happen to be out of warranty, it can cost thousands in labor alone at a stealership. I have never had a problem with either of my automatics. I just don't see the big advantage of a manual transmission these days. And after all this, when you are ready to sell your manual Accord, you will find much fewer buyers. People who drive manuals, think they are somehow more skilled drivers than the automatic driver. I drive both, just about every day, and that's just not the case. Just because you change your gears by hand, doesn't make you a better, more skilled driver. An automatic driver can actually keep both hands on the wheel, where they should be. I will agree manuals can be a little more durable, and in some cases cheaper to buy and operate. The differences are not what they used to be, however.
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Replying to: plekto (Nov 30, 2008 11:03 am) Same torque and same towing capacity? Funny that isn't the case with full sized trucks what kind of truck do you have? As far as replacing a transmission all RWD cars are easier to replace than FWD I believe. When I bought my PT one of the things I did that surprised the salesman was look under the car to see if I could get to the bell housing and transmission without having to drop the engine. My Saturn cost over $1000.00 in parts and labor to replace a clutch and pressure plate. My sons Ford Mustang had that ford 4 speed auto and we had it rebuilt for just over $1050 two years before. Yes some manuals are easier and cheeper to fix but not all. But nippon makes a valid point, manuals are still plentiful if you are willing to change what kind of car you want. It is harder to find a manual V-6 Accord or Camry on the lots, but you could order one I believe. However if you are more interested in the transmission than the car you could drop down to a sub compact Honda or Toyota and find one easier. But the OP posted a chief concern that many commuters have expressed and that is ease of driving to commute with a Automatic. That may be the number one reason automatics out number manuals more than 9 to 1. Right wrong or disagree it is still the fact listed by consumers for making the switch. It is going to take a real change in our culture to get people back into a stick. And it Hybrids and EVs are in our future even that will not help. Shoot even the Smart car isn't a manual.
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Replying to: elroy5 (Nov 30, 2008 7:17 pm) Wow... out of all the trimlines Honda offers, you found the only one that is the same: The V6 Coupe. I know you know that all the other manuals (coupes and sedans) are $800 cheaper. $800 is some serious cash in my book. I'm talking about the official numbers on the window stickers, which I am more inclined to believe. That's fine. I'm inclined to believe my own numbers and I'm way ahead of the EPA sticker. I was also talking about combined mileage, not just highway. It's closer but manuals still do better, generally. Again, you are basing your conclusions on what other manual Accord drivers say (biased). Actually, I was basing my conclusions on personal experience and Honda sales and service dept staff. I also don't remember ever talking to anyone who thought an automatic was as reliable or the same cost to repair as a manual. And you know that there are always many more problems posted than those who post no problems, automatic or manual. I don't have a problem with anyone who prefers to drive a manual. I never said manual drivers are more skilled. I do know that whenever I've sold a manual, I've never had any trouble selling and getting top dollar. Go ahead and tell me you don't want to use your left leg. Tell me that you want both hands on the wheel at all times. Tell me that you don't mind paying more for what you find convenient. Tell me that the differences are narrowing. Just don't tell me that they are the same.
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Replying to: boaz47 (Nov 30, 2008 8:45 pm) Same torque and same towing capacity? Funny that isn't the case with full sized trucks what kind of truck do you have? Not on paper, but in actual use after the torque converter and so on is added to the equation? Absolutely. See, they always measure engine power in a lab with a device attached to the output shaft. Never on an actual dyno with the wheels and transmission attached, because automatics suck enormous power. Also, to get those 0-60 times, they power shift the automatic after dumping it manually out of neutral at near redline. The Corvette, for instance, is designed to last 200 such full bore launches before the thing breaks. This sort of behavior is unreasonable, hard on the equipment, and completely unrealistic. Yet almost all magazines and manufacturers do it. Top Gear this last season, in fact, tried to replicate these times. Nothing even came close. 20% slower was the best their testers could manage on a test track. Add in an automatic and normal letting it do what it wanted(just hit the gas) and it was nearly 50% slower in most cases than the claimed specs. Add in lag for shifting and unlocking the torque converter when trying to make a pass, plus the fact that I can rev the blots off of my little 4 twice as fast and it's really exactly the same. Oh - the truck? A Toyota 4 Runner. 4000lbs. 4x4 gearing. V6 with 160HP(claimed) gets punked by my little ~120HP 4 for everything other than rock crawling, because there you can actually rev the 6 to 4000rpm and hold it there as you creep over stuff. With a newer vehicle? You can do the same with a 4cyl Tacoma and the V6.
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