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Automotive Science or Voodoo?

117 messages,  Last post on Nov 19, 2012 at 8:45 AM

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What is this discussion about? Car Safety, Exterior, Fuel System, Performance Mods, Auto Body, Engine, Fuel System, Oil, Paint, Transmission, Alternative Fuels, Diesel, Hybrid Cars, Fuel Efficiency (MPG), Car Warranties, Coupe, Convertible, Hatchback, Truck, Sedan, Wagon, SUV, Van

Messages Page 10 of 12

#88 of 117 Re: K&N Air Filters [mvls1] by trueus

Jun 06, 2005 (5:52 pm)

Replying to: mvls1 (Mar 05, 2005 3:15 pm)
I know im bringing back a very old post, but I've been trying to find out. Is Green better than K&N? Green is a brand i never heard of, but my friend Jim said the air filter did a lot more for his car than the K&N he had in it ever did. He owns an 02' cavalier.

#89 of 117 K&N by Mr_Shiftright HOST

Jun 06, 2005 (8:50 pm)

What does he mean by "did a lot more"? There's really not much just dropping in an air filter can do, unless maybe you modify the whole intake system.

#90 of 117 Re: Need Advice [epicentre] by 0patience

Jun 06, 2005 (9:49 pm)

Replying to: epicentre (Jun 06, 2005 5:07 am)
I have to tell you, as someone responsible for the maintenance and running of a heavy truck fleet, I wouldn't be very interested in any product that makes any claims of 20% increase in economy without major engine or computer work on the engine.
 
And IF they could show some data to back up their claims, I would have to see the approval that they have from DEQ and EPA that will attest to the fact that the engine would still maintain the EPA standards. Not likely.
EPA standards must be met and maintained in order for any manufacturer to endorse or condone anything being installed on their engines. Anything that voids the manufacturer's warranty on a heavy truck is junk. Plain and simple.
 
So now, with that said and remembering that when you talk about heavy truck fleet, that is what I do, I will address some of the things you commented on.
 
So this may be long, so I will split it into 2 separate posts.
 
1. The device uses a combination of LPG (Liquid Pressurized Gas) with diesel, I know this is nothing new, however they claim the electronics optimizes the firing cycle in combination with LPG.
LPG is the equivelant of Nitrous oxide to a diesel engine. While it is great for boosting power on a diesel, long term affects on the engine are controversial. I have seen several LPG boosted engines with destroyed pistons, while I have also seen many without problems. So, until someone can come up with firm, controlled data on what the long term, constant use would be for all manufacturers, LPG will never see the trucks in the fleet I work on.
 
2. They claim they have run tests with a single truck over 150k miles and the resulting diesel consumption was reduced by 37% therefore they guarantee a minimum of 20%
As was stated, I would like to know the LPG consumption. I can run a multi-fuel engine that will run 50% less diesel, if I switch to another fuel.
What engine were they running? What transmission? What gear ratios on the differentials? What year was the truck?
 
3. As for the price of the unit, they do not intend to sell them, rather they insist on a monthly lease over three years and wish to retain ownership of the device after the lease period and charge only a peppercorn rent thereafter. Apparently the electronic control also contains some sort of satalite vehicle location tracking program which can be software upgraded.
  Ok, this is the point where the salesman would find the door in 90% of the fleets they will deal with. Very few fleets will allow much of anything to be installed on their trucks that they don't own outright. Leasing anything is a pain and if something should happen to the unit, they are out the cost.
And for what reason would they have to put a location tracking program on it?

#91 of 117 Re: Need Advice [epicentre] by 0patience

Jun 06, 2005 (10:03 pm)

4. Apparently Mercedes Benz Truck division have expressed an interest to license the product but require 2 years to evaluate it within their quality system which is too long for the inventor.
I would like to see the copy of the letter of intent in order to believe such a claim.
 
5. Apparently upon emission testing, the emissions where so low that they could hardly be detected. The testers thought the emission equipment was faulty but concluded this was not the case and the emissions were simply extremely low.
So let me get this straight. Caterpillar, Detroit, Navistar, Mercedes and Isuzu all had to file extensions because they couldn't meet the 2004 DEQ/EPA regulations for emissions, but all they had to do was install this device and they could exceed those standards??
Remember, when you are talking about a diesel, hardly detectable emissions isn't that achievable. Soot from diesel is there no matter what, which is why they have gone to catalytic converters on diesels, to try and cut down the amount of unburned HCs [soot].
As someone who has been dealing with diesels for over 25 years, I find this claim extremely hard to believe.
 
Does this sound more feesable or more worrying ?
From the information provided, I would have to say NO, it doesn't sound feasible.
There are so many reasons why this reeks of snake oil salesmen, but it is a possibility.
One thing you have to remember about anything that is claiming to improve fuel economy and emissions, is that in order for these things to be approved by DEQ and EPA, there are so many things that they have to prove, not claim.
If these things cannot be proven, then the manufacturers can deny any warranty on an engine with this equipment installed and no fleet will take that chance.

#92 of 117 Re: K&N [0patience] by basils

Jun 07, 2005 (6:01 am)

Replying to: 0patience (Mar 16, 2005 10:31 pm)
In my opinion, K&N's are not worth the money or the risk. I tried them before and NEVER noticed any performance gain. Even worse, the F150 I put one into started running rough at idle. A shop tech told me it was from some cast off oil coming from the filter media and coating some sensor. I got rid of the K&N after that and went to Purolator. It wasn't worth the hassle.

#93 of 117 Re: Ref Need Advice......Thank You [epicentre] by john500

Jun 07, 2005 (9:43 am)

Replying to: epicentre (Jun 06, 2005 1:50 pm)
I agree with 0patience. I would want these additional answers just based upon logical inconsistencies now and disregarding whether it actually works without damaging the engine.
 
1. A patent is required to avoid reverse engineering problems that will siphon business (it will already happen from overseas competition, but a US patent will give some protection). Get the # and expiration date.
 
2. What happened to the "100 trucks" fitted with the system? One truck is crap. 100 trucks with the system compared to 100 without would be legitimate statistical proof of an actual mpg improvement (a minimum of 30 trucks is needed). A large part of the mpg improvement might simply be from good engine tolerances of that specific truck.
 
3. Leasing the part is a complete 180 degree turn from charging $20 K and a purchase. What is with the huge change in business strategy? Now a whole new set of break-even parameters are required for a lease coupled with LPG refilling costs.
 
4. I think fleet managers would not give a rat's ass about emissions as long as the emissions do not EXCEED a certain maximum. Why are they harping on this aspect?

#94 of 117 Re: Ref Need Advice...... Even bigger Thanks by epicentre

Jun 11, 2005 (9:21 am)

Replying to: john500 (Jun 07, 2005 9:43 am)
Dear ALL
 
Just wanted to express my sincere thanks to all of you who responded to my emails for advice. The wealth of knowledge and exprience on this site about diesel engines speaks for itself. You have all given me a lot to think about and questions I can put to the team representing this inventor.
 
I am going to be meeting with them on Tuesday 14th next week to receive a presentation and ask as many questions as I like. You can bet that I will be putting many of the points you identified to them.
 
Just to answer one of the questions raised by John500 regarding the lease strategy versus purchase. Apparently the list price for one these items is approx $20,000 . This was percieved as being prohibitive for truck owners to find, therefore
the inventor has a deal with a lease company (financial house) who purchases the unit up front but leases the unit to the truck owners over a 3 year term. At the end of the lease the truck owners pay a greatly reduced peppercorn rent but never own the device. The peppercorn rent entitles the truck owners free software upgrades as required.
 
Apparently the inventor also has an insurance policy which indeminfies the truck owner against any damages or loss for the first year should the product malfunction in any way. I believe there is also reduced cover for years 2 and 3 but I'm not sure what the terms are.
 
I know this may all be pie in the sky and I wish I had some decent knowledge about diesel / LPG engines, however at least I've been fortunate to find this site and ask the wealth of experience on it, THANK YOU ALL once again
 
If nobody has any objections, I would like to keep you all posted as to the outcome of the meeting, who knows, if it turns out to be genuine, the world is a big place and you may want to exploit the opportunity for yourselves
 
Thanks and regards
 
Epicentre

#95 of 117 Re: Ref Need Advice...... Even bigger Thanks [epicentre] by bolivar

Jun 12, 2005 (12:11 am)

Replying to: epicentre (Jun 11, 2005 9:21 am)
You said "I wish I had some decent knowledge about diesel / LPG engines"
 
Why, why, why, why would you take an interest in an investment area where you admit you have no 'decent knowledge'????????
 
Run away, run away, run away!!!!!!!

#96 of 117 Take those dollars... by isellhondas

Jun 12, 2005 (1:25 pm)

And invest them in a well managed mutual fund instead!

#97 of 117 Re: K&N [Mr_Shiftright] by sailormon

Sep 21, 2005 (5:36 am)

Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Jun 06, 2005 8:50 pm)
I used a K&N on my ford diesel and all was fine. If you go to the jeep lib. diesel forum, they reduce mileage by 10% as they seem to mess up their system as they are not set up for dif. filters. BR

Messages Page 10 of 12

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