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Automotive Science or Voodoo?

113 messages,  Last post on Oct 11, 2006 at 7:17 AM

You are in the Maintenance & Repair Forum. Your Host is mr_shiftright

What is this discussion about? Car Safety, Exterior, Fuel System, Performance Mods, Auto Body, Engine, Fuel System, Oil, Paint, Transmission, Alternative Fuels, Diesel, Hybrid Cars, Fuel Efficiency (MPG), Car Warranties, Coupe, Convertible, Hatchback, Truck, Sedan, Wagon, SUV, Van


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#105 of 113
Re: OBD-II Interface and SW to improve Engine Fuel Economy [user777] by Mr_Shiftright HOST
Sep 26, 2005 (5:07 pm)
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Replying to: user777 (Sep 26, 2005 5:01 pm)

I guess I meant that what could you learn that wouldn't already be throwing a code at you with the normal diagnostic scanning?
 
If you are experiencing very poor fuel mileage, below EPA, but no codes are being thrown, then I think maybe you need to be looking at say a conspicuous drop in horsepower...where the engine has lost power/efficiency but not due to a defect that the computer will recognize.
 
For instance, (and I don't know the answer to this, so....) how would a dyno react if you let 20 lbs of air out of the tires?
 
Or throwing it another way, could software tell you that your alignment is way out and that you are literally dragging your tires along? Probably not.
#106 of 113
Re: OBD-II Interface and SW to improve Engine Fuel Economy [Mr_Shiftright] by user777
Sep 26, 2005 (5:14 pm)
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Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Sep 26, 2005 5:07 pm)

hmmm. let me try this: in my domain, there are mathematical models for unit operation, and the transducers that monitor and thus also control unit operation have an expected range of values at various operation points. we know for example by a particular transducer reading low, that there is a problem with unit efficiency, and we can validate the sensor, based on the other sensor readings.
 
without such a model, how do you know if a sensor is drifting, or out of calibration or "clogged"? it might not be tossing a diagnostic code, and yet it's not operating properly either. therefore, the engine may be running to a sub-optimal condition.
 
for example the MAF or O2 sensors or the EGR valve.
#107 of 113
Re: OBD-II Interface and SW to improve Engine Fuel Economy [user777] by Mr_Shiftright HOST
Sep 26, 2005 (5:17 pm)
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Replying to: user777 (Sep 26, 2005 5:14 pm)

But could something that subtle affect fuel mileage so noticeably? I mean, are these automotive sensors working so sensitively as that?
#108 of 113
Re: OBD-II Interface and SW to improve Engine Fuel Economy [Mr_Shiftright] by user777
Sep 26, 2005 (5:24 pm)
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Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Sep 26, 2005 5:17 pm)

this isn't my domain, but yeah, when someone says they are getting 17HWY, and the vehicle is supposed to be getting 25 (and everyone else is), and there are no codes, yeah, i think the sensor is "bad", but still providing a within-range measurement that is being acted upon to the detriment of the combustion cycle.
 
really, i don't think sensor validation is as critical in a vehicle, nor do they want tight tolerances, because of the false positives and desire for running reliability...this then comes at the detriment to detecting loss of efficiency due to the transducer measurement itself.
 
am i totally duped? i don't know...this isn't my domain of expertise, but I got a sneaky suspicion that the car makers are using adaptive control within limits, and are diagnosing transducer failures within limits, but in the realm of possibility are vehicles runnning needlessly derated. they ain't tossing codes (till something like the CAT is fully gone), or the wires are falling off the 02 sensor. meanwhile, the person is just burning gas faster than necessary.
 
can you catch this during emissions testing time? i don't know - can you and have the vehicle not pass?
#109 of 113
Re: OBD-II Interface and SW to improve Engine Fuel Economy [user777] by Mr_Shiftright HOST
Sep 27, 2005 (7:02 am)
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Replying to: user777 (Sep 26, 2005 5:24 pm)

Well I don't know, except to say that gas mileage is subject to SO MANY variables that have nothing to do with the engine management system per se.
#110 of 113
a new one! by Mr_Shiftright HOST
Oct 23, 2005 (4:56 pm)
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Hey, this looks small enough to put in a car! Let's all buy one...oh wait, you can't says FAQ....
 
http://www.lutec.com.au/index.htm
#111 of 113
Re: Automotive Science or Voodoo? [dialm4speed] by dmcvickar
Oct 06, 2006 (3:37 pm)
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Replying to: dialm4speed (Mar 06, 2005 4:06 am)

Yes in fact I distribute the product. I have used BlueSky in every car I own every time I fill up. I have been doing this for the past six years. I have spent thousands of dollars testing BlueSky here in California and in Mexico, Japan, Europe and Sri Lanka. It was originally developed for diesel fuel and we found it to work very well in gasoline as well as bio-diesel, ethanol & methanol.
 
It is not a device but a liquid fuel additive one adds to your fuel every time you fill up. Use about 1-ounce for every ten gallons of fuel. It will clean your fuel system & combustion chamber. The theory behind all this is that you will have an even dispersement of fuel in the combustion chamber which has been cleaned. This clean combustion chamber, free of carbon build-up will provide the best environment for a 'complete burn' of the fuel. This means the more fuel gets burned=less pollution and more power! If you have a dirty fuel system or combustion chamber this will maximize your fuel consumption and may improve it substantially. Thank you for the opportunity. If you have any more questions please feel free to contact me.
doug
#112 of 113
Re: Automotive Science or Voodoo? [dmcvickar] by isellhondas
Oct 10, 2006 (11:49 am)
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Replying to: dmcvickar (Oct 06, 2006 3:37 pm)

Sounds like you really believe that stuff makes a difference.
 
Blue Sky? I think I would find another product line!
#113 of 113
Re: Automotive Science or Voodoo? [dmcvickar] by Mr_Shiftright HOST
Oct 11, 2006 (7:17 am)
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Replying to: dmcvickar (Oct 06, 2006 3:37 pm)

This seems counter-intuitive, since a light carbonization of the fuel chamber would increase compression and hence power. I don't see the relationship of carbon to a "complete burn" one way or the other.
 
I could see where a fuel injector CLEANER would give a better spray pattern but this has nothing to do with the combustion chamber.
 
If the claim is that the additive changes the chemical composition of gasoline itself, I'd like to see the science behind that claim and what molecular changes have occurred.

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