- #7325 of 8147
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Re: Will CARB & EPA bankrupt the trucking industry? [plekto]
by gagrice
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Dec 29, 2008 (8:27 pm)
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Replying to: plekto (Dec 29, 2008 6:28 pm)
A few years ago I was going to convert my 3/4 ton Chevy PU to LNG or CNG. The conversion was about $5k. The company I talked to had converted a bunch of vehicles for the Navy here in San Diego. At the time there were only 2 stations in all San Diego where you could get CNG. Currently with gas prices where they are CNG is a wash price wise. Using a home fueling device is fine provided you have natural gas. Much of San Diego county does not have natural gas. It is pretty much in the densely populated suburbs and the city. I just read an article that said you could not drive the Civic GX from LA to LV as there were no places midway to fill your tank. Of course you have no real trunk with that big tank. At this point I would prefer a propane conversion with the ability to switch back and forth. Much cheaper to install. Though propane is still outrageous here. My provider as of Friday is charging $3 per gallon. That makes it mighty expensive driving. The other issue is I don't like the Civic as a vehicle to start with. I don't think anyone else is selling CNG anymore. Used to be a bunch. A friend has 3 old CNG Ford cop cars. he uses two for parts to keep one going.
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- #7326 of 8147
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Re: Will CARB & EPA bankrupt the trucking industry? [plekto]
by gagrice
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Dec 29, 2008 (8:44 pm)
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Replying to: plekto (Dec 29, 2008 6:28 pm)
Just looked at your map. The closest station for me is about 32 miles from the house. If you were going to Phoenix from San Diego you would not likely make it. Last station is in El Centro currently selling at $2.95. It is 248 miles to the next station in Phoenix. If you are driving from LA to Phoenix the last leg is 268 miles. Not a chance I would risk that. As I have said they make good commuter vehicles. Don't hold your breath for them to become mainstream. I want a diesel with a minimum 600 mile highway range. Not a shorter range. That is the main gripe I have with this Sequoia is 350 miles and you are looking for a gas station. If I was buying a small vehicle today it would be the VW Sportwagen TDI. Nothing else in America would have a chance at my wallet.
PS
Take Interstate 10 across from AZ and you will find stretches as far as 360 miles between stations with prices as high today as $3.67 per gallon equivalent.
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- #7327 of 8147
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Re: Will CARB & EPA bankrupt the trucking industry? [plekto]
by ruking1
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Dec 30, 2008 (8:09 am)
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Replying to: plekto (Dec 29, 2008 6:28 pm)
Wow ! Folks used to voice as a "real concern" the lack of diesel availability 1 in every 4 fuel stations in 2002/2003 when I first considered the diesel ! It was then, and remains totally and utterly seamless to get fuel. The passenger CAR diesel fleet has actually decreased app - minus 33% from less than 3% to 2%. 92% of that 2% are mid sized light trucks. Math indicates app 406,560 passenger CAR diesel vehicles, (.0016% ) USA.
So with a yearly sales of less than 2,000 CNG Civic's, how long would one suppose it would take to become 1,2,3,4,5% of the 254.1 M passenger vehicle fleet? Keep in mind that with the 1,000 on up installation of home fueling obviously gives a Civic (or any other for that matter) an almost no brainer advantage. While I tip my hat to Honda for doing alternative fuels such as diesel, CNG, if diesels are considered a niche market then CNG will probably stay less than that. So for example how many (cng) gas company vehicles actually run on CNG?
CARB and the EPA are both concerned that the passenger diesel car population will have a "mauthusian growth rate" (graphic: multilpy like rabbits and NYC mice and rats) 
Downstream, I have read that CNG is very dilutive of engine oil. So for example I run 20,000 mile OCI's gasser) with 10,000 mile OEM recommended. I have read in passing CNG folks do not go much over 5,000 miles OCI.
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- #7328 of 8147
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Re: Will CARB & EPA bankrupt the trucking industry? [gagrice]
by plekto
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Dec 30, 2008 (10:54 pm)
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Replying to: gagrice (Dec 29, 2008 8:44 pm)
My main point wasn't that it is viable compared to Diesel so much as CNG would solve most of our nation's fuel problems if the government invested in it rather than some GM and Ford run pipe dream hybrids.
CNG is worlds cheaper to implement on a large scale compared to the other options. And it doesn't effect corn prices, either.
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- #7329 of 8147
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Natural Gas to diesel? [plekto]
by gagrice
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Dec 31, 2008 (6:44 am)
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Replying to: plekto (Dec 30, 2008 10:54 pm)
I agree with you on CNG. I am a big T. Boone fan also. When they get the pipeline built across Canada from Alaska we will have a very good source of Natural Gas to feed the Midwest. I think it is best used in buses, PU trucks and delivery trucks. It just takes up too much room in a small car. The tanks have a limited life span and are very expensive to replace. To me they are kind of like hybrids. If you put a lot of miles on a vehicle in a short time then they may be good options. There are fewer dealers for CNG in San Diego today than in 1993 when I was going to convert my PU truck. Our Gas Utility trucks where I worked in Alaska used LNG. They claimed it was safer than CNG. I know that Sempra just opened a large LNG facility across the border in Mexico. You should be able to get more range from smaller tanks with LNG. There is also the emerging GTL. Making super clean diesel from Natural Gas. Qatar has the worlds largest known reserve of Natural Gas with several GTL plants in different stages of development. Some exciting new developments going on.
http://www.qp.com.qa/qp.nsf/web/bc_new_projects_gtl
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- #7330 of 8147
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Refiners shifting their focus
by moparbad
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Dec 31, 2008 (12:08 pm)
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more diesel, less gasoline
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- #7331 of 8147
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Re: Refiners shifting their focus [moparbad]
by gagrice
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Dec 31, 2008 (1:24 pm)
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Replying to: moparbad (Dec 31, 2008 12:08 pm)
I guess I better get off my duff and buy a diesel SUV before diesel prices drop below gas.
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- #7332 of 8147
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Re: Natural Gas to diesel? [gagrice]
by plekto
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Dec 31, 2008 (11:52 pm)
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Replying to: gagrice (Dec 31, 2008 6:44 am)
Any of the gasses or liquids in the same family would work, in theory. Yes, the tanks are a bit of a problem, but they are loads cheaper than a set of batteries to replace and with a purpose-built vehicle, the tanks wouldn't be a miserable kludge. Early electric vehicles were similar as well fi you remember, with their trunks filled with batteries and so on.
It just works. Pickens is a bit over the top, but we do have tons of the stuff that we could make and it's not going to use a drop of ethanol or foreign oil. And most people, if you could get 300-400 miles range, wouldn't care WHAT they fill the car with as long as it's cheap and quick.
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- #7333 of 8147
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Re: Natural Gas to diesel? [plekto]
by gagrice
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Jan 01, 2009 (5:29 am)
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Replying to: plekto (Dec 31, 2008 11:52 pm)
it's not going to use a drop of ethanol or foreign oil.
I think people would be surprised to know just how much natural gas is used in the growing of corn and processing ethanol. The main fertilizer used to grow corn anhydrous ammonia is made from natural gas. Natural gas is used to process the corn into ethanol. Of course a lot of diesel is used in the farming and transportation of ethanol. I have never figured out why we spend so much time experimenting with hydrogen cars when it takes as much natural gas to produce the hydrogen as it would to just power the car. The trick now is getting the massive amounts of Natural Gas out of the Arctic down to the people. It will decrease our trade deficit and benefit Alaska as well as the Midwest. As long as they do not waste it growing corn for ethanol.
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- #7334 of 8147
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Re: Natural Gas to diesel? [plekto]
by ruking1
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Jan 01, 2009 (8:25 am)
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Replying to: plekto (Dec 31, 2008 11:52 pm)
Being as how this is a diesel thread, just the Honda nat gas product shows how natural gas is even farther from implementation than diesel. Diesel only has a "small premium" compared to natural gas. The natural gas Civic costs 25,100 plus 1200 and installation costs: compared with a DX 16,205. The math indicates a min of 9,000 over a gasser. If you want that way cheaper home fuel ability you are talking more like 10,000 over. The nat gas EPA ratings are 24/36 vs 25/36 rug to pug.
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