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What is this discussion about? Alternative Fuels

Messages Page 2 of 5

#8 of 47 Re: Hydrogen Fuel May Not Be So 'Clean' [gagrice] by robertsmx

Jan 25, 2005 (1:30 pm)

Replying to: gagrice (Jan 25, 2005 10:52 am)
No shift. Both are important to the viability for hydrogen to ever escape the laboratory.
 
You think diesel/gasoline do nothing to the environment if they escape? Hydrogen is out there in the atmosphere already, BTW.
 
I talked about shift because you didn't continue the discussion that you started and moved on to the next issue (which has since been debunked).

#9 of 47 Re: Hydrogen Fuel May Not Be So 'Clean' [robertsmx] by gagrice

Jan 25, 2005 (10:59 pm)

Replying to: robertsmx (Jan 25, 2005 1:30 pm)
I talked about shift because you didn't continue the discussion that you started and moved on to the next issue (which has since been debunked).
 
If you are referring to the HES II, I think it is great. Can the average citizen afford it for his home? If not it is a lab toy that has not solved any problems.
 
Nothing has been debunked by your posts. You have not proven that the study by MIT is faulty. You have not presented a study that refutes what they are saying. You seem to be caught up with Honda fever thinking they are going to save the world with their fuel cell vehicles. What does happen when hydrogen leaks? I know what happens when a hydrogen bomb goes off. It is one of the most powerful weapons ever built by man. For you to say hydrogen is totally safe may not be true. Where is your study showing the leakage of hydrogen is not a problem?
 
So does that address both issues?

#10 of 47 Re: Hydrogen Fuel May Not Be So 'Clean' [gagrice] by robertsmx

Jan 26, 2005 (8:39 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Jan 25, 2005 10:59 pm)
Conventional thinking isn’t going to lead to innovation. That’s the problem with statements like these…
 
“Extracting useful quantities of hydrogen (search) from water requires a massive amount of energy — energy that typically comes from burning oil or coal.”
 
Notice an emphasis on oil and coal. WHY? What is wrong with solar energy? Perhaps wind too! At least one company is taking steps in the right direction. Whether they succeed or not remains to be seen, but you would never know unless you tried it. And that effort gets my vote. The naysayer could do better than standing on the side line.
 
Speaking of safety, hydrogen or gasoline, I wouldn’t want to “live” close to either storage facility.
 
As far as affordability is concerned, not everybody can afford everything. And then consider the impact of economy of scale. Prototypes cost a lot, especially in the development phase. This is true for new technological developments as it is for conventional technology. There is no free lunch. You have to earn it.
 
Honda isn’t placing its bets on fuel cell technology yet, although they are opening up the sales to individual buyers. But to be prepared for the future, a progressive company couldn’t sit and watch and assume its all magic!

#11 of 47 Re: Hydrogen Fuel May Not Be So 'Clean' [robertsmx] by gagrice

Jan 26, 2005 (8:56 am)

Replying to: robertsmx (Jan 26, 2005 8:39 am)
I do applaud Honda for their efforts on fuel cell technology. When you show sites that have these vehicles and infrastructure in use, my interest is in HOW much will it cost for me to get one. As an example Chrysler spent years and millions of dollars on the diesel/hybrid. Not many people knew about it and it was scrapped due to high cost to the customer.
 
What do you know about the Civic GX? I was really interested in converting a vehicle to CNG in 1997. I found several deal breakers. Lack of stations was not the biggest problem. The cylinders that store the CNG are extremely delicate. They have to be inspected on a regular basis. They have to be replaced after a few years. The local gas company where I work converted all their trucks to LNG/CNG. After 5 years they abandoned them and went back to diesel trucks.
 
I would say solar conversion of water to hydrogen is a real "pie in the sky". Wind generation of hydrogen is a bigger boondoggle.

#12 of 47 Re: Hydrogen Fuel May Not Be So 'Clean' [gagrice] by robertsmx

Jan 26, 2005 (10:27 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Jan 26, 2005 8:56 am)
I doubt you realize what economy of scale means, and that prototypes cost a lot for similar reasons. Do you think Honda SSM roadster concept from 1995 cost Honda as much as its production form, the S2000 does? At this time, it is about possibilities, and innovations start from there. Whatever it is, Honda’s move to announce sale of FCX to individual buyers was unexpected as far as I’m concerned. Apparently, IT IS practical technology, and Honda is going to provide whatever it takes. With fleet sales for about two years now, they have been.
 
Civic GX is another story. It wasn’t available to individual buyers like you and I. Beginning this spring, it will be, with Phill. You don’t store CNG, you pump it from the pipes from your home, via Phill into your car. And if gas stations are progressive enough, they may offer Phill at their installations too!
 
I would say solar conversion of water to hydrogen is a real "pie in the sky". Wind generation of hydrogen is a bigger boondoggle.
 
Haven’t seen wind energy being used as of now (unless part of electricity used to generate hydrogen in more conventional way is coming from it), but to figure out pie in the sky as opposed to on your table, you will have to see it to believe. Drive down to Torrance, CA and you just might. It is not just a concept/an idea, it is a working model.

#13 of 47 Re: Hydrogen Fuel May Not Be So 'Clean' [robertsmx] by gagrice

Jan 26, 2005 (10:34 am)

Replying to: robertsmx (Jan 26, 2005 10:27 am)
Honda’s move to announce sale of FCX to individual buyers was unexpected as far as I’m concerned.
 
Have you seen any pricing?

#14 of 47 by electrictroy

Jan 26, 2005 (9:58 am)

"What is wrong with solar energy?"
 
.
 
Nothing, but why add the extra, energy-wasteful step of hydrogen??? Just dump it directly into a battery.
 
troy

#15 of 47 Re: [electrictroy] by robertsmx

Jan 26, 2005 (10:15 am)

Replying to: electrictroy (Jan 26, 2005 9:58 am)
Nothing, but why add the extra, energy-wasteful step of hydrogen??? Just dump it directly into a battery.
 
If that were practical, I’m sure that would be the route taken. But, it is fantasy at the moment given the technology on hand. You can only live in the present and dream of the future.
 
There is a limit to trapping solar energy at the moment. Honda is using it, not only to produce hydrogen, but also to power some of its manufacturing facilities and cut down costs as well as emissions. However, it still requires help from the traditional methods to get the job done. The key here is “assist” and not “take over”. The latter could happen some day, but that isn’t now.

#16 of 47 Re: [robertsmx] by gagrice

Jan 26, 2005 (10:31 am)

Replying to: robertsmx (Jan 26, 2005 10:15 am)
it is fantasy at the moment given the technology on hand
 
Don't forget that fuel cell cars are fantasy until someone offers them at a comparable price to a current vehicle. The problems with solar has not changed. The electricity you get does not pay for the cells before the Sun destroys them. Plus they only work in places that have enough sunny weather. I did the solar water heater thing at my home in Lake Havasu, AZ. It was starting to leak at 4 years and unusable. The company that warrantied it for 10 years was out of business. The initial cost was way more than the electric saved.

#17 of 47 Re: [gagrice] by robertsmx

Jan 26, 2005 (10:36 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Jan 26, 2005 10:31 am)
What is "comparable price"? There are cars selling for over million dollars.
 
The electricity you get does not pay for the cells before the Sun destroys them.
 
Really? How do you know? Tell me what was Honda thinking by installing its solar panels to power some of its manufacturing units to cut down costs (and emissions). Ideas?
 
Plus they only work in places that have enough sunny weather.
 
True. I was thinking about the same when troy suggested directly storing solar energy into batteries (actually, my landscape lighting at home works that way). To generate hydrogen, however, you could still use solar panels and thats the bottom line. Feasibility at all places may not exist, at least with current technology. But, this is an issue with conventional fuel as well, isn't it?
 
Have you seen any pricing?
 
If I did, you would have been told. I talk about things I see and know as facts, or my observations. Assumptions are identified as such.

Messages Page 2 of 5

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