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What is this discussion about? Alternative Fuels

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#1 of 47 Solar Powered Cars - in our Future? by Sylvia

Jan 26, 2005 (10:52 am)

To pick up many of the comments and questions as to whether or not Solar is an optional technology for powering cars.

#2 of 47 Hydrogen Fuel May Not Be So 'Clean' by gagrice

Jan 25, 2005 (7:37 am)

Extracting useful quantities of hydrogen from water requires a massive amount of energy — energy that typically comes from burning oil or coal.
 
You can also get hydrogen from methane but once again, it takes a "dirty" fuel to create a "clean" one.
 
Another possible problem: Scientists call hydrogen a "leaky gas" that easily escapes from any container you put it in, potentially harming the environment.
 
"It is not a neutral gas," Prather said. "It actually does interact in the atmosphere. And in some sense it needs a better evaluation."
 
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,145166,00.html

#3 of 47 Re: Hydrogen Fuel May Not Be So 'Clean' [gagrice] by robertsmx

Jan 25, 2005 (9:00 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Jan 25, 2005 7:37 am)
Apparently you missed extraction process using solar energy in one of my earlier posts. It is already in place at a Honda facility in SoCal.
 
These articles provide nothing but lopsided point of views.
 
If indeed one takes the hard way out to producing hydrogen, or to make a point against it especially in terms of cleanliness, it would make sense to compare lifetime contribution towards environment from production facility to delivery centers to emissions from the vehicles. Here is what I mean:
 
If a vehicle that uses hydrogen as a fuel travels 100 miles and uses X amount of the fuel to do so. In the process of extracting and delivering the fuel, combined with the vehicle’s emissions over the distance, let us assume the total emission “cost” is Z1.
 
Likewise, another vehicle with gasoline or hydrogen travels the same distance and consumes Y amount of the fuel. The overall emissions cost is Z2.
 
What criteria do these guys have to suggest that Z2 is lower than Z1?

#4 of 47 Re: Hydrogen Fuel May Not Be So 'Clean' [robertsmx] by gagrice

Jan 25, 2005 (9:32 am)

Replying to: robertsmx (Jan 25, 2005 9:00 am)
Apparently you missed extraction process using solar energy in one of my earlier posts. It is already in place at a Honda facility in SoCal.
 
What does it cost? Solar technology is not now or has it made much progress in the last 30 years. It is very expensive to squeeze kilowatts from the sun. If it was viable, myself and millions of people in So CA would have collectors on our houses. You cannot recoup your investment before it deteriorates from the sun that gives it energy.

#5 of 47 Re: Hydrogen Fuel May Not Be So 'Clean' [robertsmx] by gagrice

Jan 25, 2005 (9:36 am)

Replying to: robertsmx (Jan 25, 2005 9:00 am)
What criteria do these guys have to suggest that Z2 is lower than Z1?
 
You would have to get the studies from MIT & GM to find that answer. If Nuclear energy had a chance to proliferate in the USA, hydrogen might be a viable way to go. I don't see it doing anything but wasting billions of my tax dollars in corporate welfare.

#6 of 47 Re: Hydrogen Fuel May Not Be So 'Clean' [gagrice] by robertsmx

Jan 25, 2005 (10:18 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Jan 25, 2005 9:32 am)
I notice a shift in your argument from the "clean" side to "cost" side. Are we done with "clean" now? If we're, then let us talk about cost, and viability.
 
Well, viability isn’t an issue because it is a practical technology and as commonly seen as in the landscape lighting of my home’s front and back yards. As for as cost to set up fuel delivery system, I don’t have a clue about cost of setting up a conventional gas station either. With solar energy, however, you can take transportation out of the picture (either by way of pipeline or trucks or trains). It is all “natural”.
 
If you know more about the associated costs on both sides, please do let me know.
 
Picture of hydrogen refueling systems developed by Honda (this installation is in Torrance, CA):
 

 
Home Energy System (HES) is to the left which runs on CNG, and Solar Powered Fuel Station to the right.

#7 of 47 Re: Hydrogen Fuel May Not Be So 'Clean' [robertsmx] by gagrice

Jan 25, 2005 (10:52 am)

Replying to: robertsmx (Jan 25, 2005 10:18 am)
I notice a shift in your argument from the "clean" side to "cost" side. Are we done with "clean" now?
 
No shift. Both are important to the viability for hydrogen to ever escape the laboratory.
 
I admit the HES II is an exciting piece of equipment. If it is ever affordable I would be interested in it along with a hydrogen car. Though the leaky factor of hydrogen does have me a bit concerned. I had not heard that before. If you leave your Honda FCX sitting with a full tank and come back 2 weeks later will it still be full?

#8 of 47 Re: Hydrogen Fuel May Not Be So 'Clean' [gagrice] by robertsmx

Jan 25, 2005 (1:30 pm)

Replying to: gagrice (Jan 25, 2005 10:52 am)
No shift. Both are important to the viability for hydrogen to ever escape the laboratory.
 
You think diesel/gasoline do nothing to the environment if they escape? Hydrogen is out there in the atmosphere already, BTW.
 
I talked about shift because you didn't continue the discussion that you started and moved on to the next issue (which has since been debunked).

#9 of 47 Re: Hydrogen Fuel May Not Be So 'Clean' [robertsmx] by gagrice

Jan 25, 2005 (10:59 pm)

Replying to: robertsmx (Jan 25, 2005 1:30 pm)
I talked about shift because you didn't continue the discussion that you started and moved on to the next issue (which has since been debunked).
 
If you are referring to the HES II, I think it is great. Can the average citizen afford it for his home? If not it is a lab toy that has not solved any problems.
 
Nothing has been debunked by your posts. You have not proven that the study by MIT is faulty. You have not presented a study that refutes what they are saying. You seem to be caught up with Honda fever thinking they are going to save the world with their fuel cell vehicles. What does happen when hydrogen leaks? I know what happens when a hydrogen bomb goes off. It is one of the most powerful weapons ever built by man. For you to say hydrogen is totally safe may not be true. Where is your study showing the leakage of hydrogen is not a problem?
 
So does that address both issues?

#10 of 47 Re: Hydrogen Fuel May Not Be So 'Clean' [gagrice] by robertsmx

Jan 26, 2005 (8:39 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Jan 25, 2005 10:59 pm)
Conventional thinking isn’t going to lead to innovation. That’s the problem with statements like these…
 
“Extracting useful quantities of hydrogen (search) from water requires a massive amount of energy — energy that typically comes from burning oil or coal.”
 
Notice an emphasis on oil and coal. WHY? What is wrong with solar energy? Perhaps wind too! At least one company is taking steps in the right direction. Whether they succeed or not remains to be seen, but you would never know unless you tried it. And that effort gets my vote. The naysayer could do better than standing on the side line.
 
Speaking of safety, hydrogen or gasoline, I wouldn’t want to “live” close to either storage facility.
 
As far as affordability is concerned, not everybody can afford everything. And then consider the impact of economy of scale. Prototypes cost a lot, especially in the development phase. This is true for new technological developments as it is for conventional technology. There is no free lunch. You have to earn it.
 
Honda isn’t placing its bets on fuel cell technology yet, although they are opening up the sales to individual buyers. But to be prepared for the future, a progressive company couldn’t sit and watch and assume its all magic!

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