Honda Accord Hybrid - worth the extra $$$? - READ ONLY

223 messages, Last post on Feb 07, 2006 at 6:12 PM

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#81 of 223 Re: OK guys settle down a bit, what with cars getting shoved down throats etc [miketawas] by rfruth Feb 11, 2005 (3:29 pm)
Replying to: miketawas (Feb 11, 2005 12:18 am) Well under 20, you're not kidding something is amiss, sticky brake caliper, thermostat stuck open, transmission trouble ? Most importantly can you convince a Honda dealer something is wrong ?
#82 of 223 Re: OK guys settle down a bit, what with cars getting shoved down throats etc [miketawas] by backy Feb 11, 2005 (3:59 pm)
Replying to: miketawas (Feb 11, 2005 12:18 am) You probably already thought of this, but new car dealers are notorious for not setting tire pressures correctly. Is the tire pressure set as recommended?
#83 of 223 Re: My Experiences to Date in Accord Hybrid [lotsacars] by tlauro Feb 11, 2005 (10:27 pm)
Replying to: lotsacars (Jan 29, 2005 5:04 am) Not to be picky, but the Accord Hybrid only has 232 ft lbs 5000rpm with the IMA in motion. "Plusses: 1. Power. This car has 316 lb/ft of torque and you can feel it. It's faster than the Lexus IS300 it's replacing, and bigger. " I agree with your lack of luxery items. One would think since it's the third year, they would add some things. HID's are nice. I added them aftermarket. Actually use less power than Halogens. Toyota knew that. Sunroof...well, they couldn't add the lbs, so they opted out for the first year until they figure out how to trim the wieght. Same with the passenger power seat. Good luck with the car. I can't justify the cost delta but enjoy the regular V6 a lot.
#84 of 223 HAH mpgs appear low by tlauro Feb 11, 2005 (10:47 pm)
Replying to: gagrice (Jan 24, 2005 8:48 am) I drive the heck out of my standard AV6 Sedan and average 21-23mpg overall. On the highway at a cruising speed of 72-75mph where I normally stay, I get essentially the same. I've only driven 55-65 mph and tracked the mpg one time for about an hour and noticed that the trip computer average for that run went to about 26mpg. In the end, it's just my opinion, but if they could get the HAH to hit mid 30's mpg in the city and mid 40's on the highway, they have me interested. Otherwise, the cost of my gas is basically irrelevant.
#85 of 223 HAH mpgs will likely stay lower than expected by tlauro Feb 11, 2005 (11:25 pm)
Replying to: gagrice (Jan 24, 2005 10:37 am) IMO, it's the that Honda didn't consider human nature, it's that mpg ratings are derived from an outdated and misunderstood testing method. The city test 11 miles long and is a stop go with an average speed of 20 mph). The trip lasts 31 minutes and has 23 stops. About 18 percent of the time is spent idling to similuate waiting for traffic lights. A short freeway driving segment is included in the test. The engine is initially started after being parked overnight. The highway test is a 10 mile run with an average speed of 48 mph. The vehicle is started "hot" and there is very little idling and no stops. In addition, a vehicle's mileage is based on measurements of the vehicle's emission output instead of directly measuring the actual fuel consumed by the vehicle. IMO, this is likely why hybrids and other LEV's are even further off what the real world presents when comparing the mpg "average" that is on the window sticker and specs given by Honda. Feel free to review the testing here: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/factshts/fefact01.pdf "I also think that a person with the will power to drive the HAH as some of you HCH drivers have learned to drive, will get close to the EPA mileage..... The result is the HCH is right at the EPA averages......Honda failed to take into consideration human nature. Replies to this message: xcel (Feb 12, 2005 7:42 am) tlauro (Feb 12, 2005 8:42 am) xcel (Feb 12, 2005 9:03 am) and 2 more...
#86 of 223 Re: HAH mpgs will likely stay lower than expected [tlauro] by xcel Feb 12, 2005 (7:42 am)
Replying to: tlauro (Feb 11, 2005 11:25 pm) Hi Tlauro: The item of note in regards to the EPA testing is that if said driver drove the City simulation with his or her AH at the same speeds, same accelerations and decelerations (stops), same ambient temperatures, no load accessories, and the highway simulation with the speed ups and slow downs, as well as ambient temps, etc. … they would achieve EPA estimates in a brand new automobile as that of the FTP75 tests. The Road and Aero drag numbers are handled by a compensation factor of 22% for the highway test and 10% for the city test. Unfortunately, today’s road speeds, traffic congestion, city/highway %’s, ambient temps, and accessory use/load is far from ideal by comparison to the lab produced FTP cycles. In regards to the CO2 Bag measurement, it does correlate to the amount of fuel consumed very closely. Today’s Emission control technologies cannot change the ~ 19.x #’s of CO2 emitted/gallon of fuel consumed so measuring it in this fashion across all automobiles is not flawed as some may think. The auto manufacturers are not skewing the tests, they are reporting on the new car window sticker exactly what the car achieved in the test(s) as they were performed. The EPA does not test all cars but relies on the manufacturers to report the actuals as they were achieved. Do you think the Prius II or HCH was designed specifically around the FTP test cycles? I would guess that because of the large shortfall to real world that the Prius II in particular was but it still achieved its estimates on the FTP test cycles as stated or there would be some severe consequences in terms of certification. In other words, this isn’t Toyota, Honda, Ford, or GM misstating the numbers, it is the tests themselves overstating what the average consumer believes he or she will be receiving in the real world. Finally, ones driving habits are definitely the key to whether you will achieve close to EPA estimates, fall short, or exceed them. Most are falling short by ~ 20%. There are also those that can absolutely cream the EPA estimates in both the city and highway tests using the tools and techniques of a hypermiler. If you were to run the AH at 58 mph down the highway here in Illinois for example, it will quite easily achieve > 40 mpg. How much greater has yet to be discovered Although nothing to do with this topic or thread, I want to thank you for the info you provided on the STB’s, HPF kit, and rear bar on your Accord. Your EX V6 sounds like a wolf in sheep’s clothing waiting in the wings for the average TL/TSX to pull into its gun sights. It must be neat to see the faces of the TL/TSX drivers at the Auto-Cross events you participate in when the lowly but still very powerful Accord cleans their clock Good Luck Wayne R. Gerdes Replies to this message: tlauro (Feb 12, 2005 8:42 am) xcel (Feb 12, 2005 9:03 am) tlauro (Feb 12, 2005 9:41 am) williams3 (Feb 22, 2005 5:13 pm)
#87 of 223 Clarification on my thoughts. by tlauro Feb 12, 2005 (8:42 am)
Replying to: xcel (Feb 12, 2005 7:42 am) Wayne YOU WROTE: "The item of note in regards to the EPA testing is that if said driver drove the City simulation with his or her AH at the same speeds, same accelerations and decelerations (stops), same ambient temperatures, no load accessories, and the highway simulation with the speed ups and slow downs, as well as ambient temps, etc. … they would achieve EPA estimates in a brand new automobile as that of the FTP75 tests. " REPLY: The above is true and not what's in debate...not entirely. The MPG's stated by the manufactures are estimates, not actuals. The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers states that the numbers on the stickers are generally reliable estimates of what a consumer’s mileage may be. It’s just like the sticker says, ‘Actual mileage may vary.’ I personally have exceeded the mileage on the sticker too, but not in real world driving. That's what the point of all the complaints I've seen on mpgs is relating to -- Real world results. Since the EPA last adjusted the formula for estimating vehicle fuel economy in 1984, highway speed limits have been raised and urban sprawl has created longer, more congested commutes, thus the results today are not being seen by many. YOU WROTE: <snipped> The auto manufacturers are not skewing the tests,......... In other words, this isn’t Toyota, Honda, Ford, or GM misstating the numbers, it is the tests themselves overstating what the average consumer believes he or she will be receiving in the real world. REPLY: Correct, and let me say that I didn't mean the manufactures are skewing results, but they aren't reporting what is considered real world accurate numbers. Automakers generate a large percentage of their revenues and profits from the sale of SUVs and pickup trucks, and a change in the way the EPA calculates fuel economy ratings could impact sales. Thus the lobbiests are very strong in preventing any look-see into proposed changes. I seriously doubt these lab tests for The CAFE will change simply because the CAFE program establishes fuel efficiency standards for major automakers. That program, is administered by the Department of Transportation using EPA figures, penalizes automakers who do not achieve minimum average fuel economy targets across their car and truck lineup. In 2004, individual automakers’ cars must average 27.5 mpg, and light trucks must average 20.7 mpg. The lab procedure was put into law back in 1975 and can only be changed by Congress. Good luck at getting that to happen...especially with Bush at the throne. Besides, the automakers contend the current EPA ratings provide consumers with an effective, objective tool to choose between competing models. Perhaps it does, but as we are seeing all over, especially in these forums, consumers don't like it and are confused. Federal law requires that auto manufacturers use only EPA estimates when promoting their vehicles. Interestingly enough, John DiPietro, road-test editor here at Edmunds.com has been quoted as saying "most drivers will get between 75 to 87 percent of the rated mileage, with individual variations based on driving habits and traffic route. "If a new car gets less than 75 percent of its EPA rating, then it should be retested." So even the testers here know that the real world results aren't in line with window stickers. I'm not a huge fan of them, but even consumer reports indicates that hybrid cars get less than 60 percent of EPA estimates on city streets. In Consumer Reports' real-world driving test, the Civic Hybrid averaged 26 mpg in the city, while the Toyota Prius averaged 35 mpg. That's far less than their respective EPA estimates of 47 and 60 mpg. They did however see that Hybrid cars performed much closer to EPA estimates in Consumer Reports' highway tests. In conclusion, I just plain thing manufacturers need to come to reality and set clear expectations for consumers. Otherwise, the complaints and questions will continue on. PS....thanks for the kind words on my car. Replies to this message: xcel (Feb 12, 2005 9:03 am) tlauro (Feb 12, 2005 9:41 am) williams3 (Feb 22, 2005 5:13 pm)
#88 of 223 Re: Clarification on my thoughts. [tlauro] by xcel Feb 12, 2005 (9:03 am)
Replying to: tlauro (Feb 12, 2005 8:42 am) Hi Tlauro: You may or may not have seen the links below in the past. If you haven’t, they are worth 5 minutes of your time to see what CR’s actually received with a number of automobiles. 03: http://autos.yahoo.com/consumerreports/article/fuel_efficient_car- s_category.html 04: http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv4.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt- _id=303375&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=113261 In regards to the EPA vs. real world Delta’s, the best written article I have seen to date is the following although some of their sources are a bit suspect: http://www.bluewaternetwork.org/reports/rep_gw_EPAdocket.pdf And finally, there are those that do achieve far higher then EPA estimates in the real world no matter the conditions for example: http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/ and http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/showthread.php?t=679 If you look closely, I have already added one Accord Hybrid pilot to the second links list and it is only a matter of time before more follow. They won’t be making it by driving at 80 + mph or accelerating with the capabilities that the AH allows but those that are a bit more careful do stand a good chance If it were up to the manufacturers, who is first? Should Toyota volunteer that the Toyota Prius II is really a 35/50 mpg car vs. the HCH’s 45/51 according to the EPA? That is going to hurt. Should Ford offer up that the Expedition actually only receives 11 mpg in the city or the Chevrolet Trailblazer is good for just 9 mpg when Toyota can advertise that the Sequoia is good for 15 mpg per the EPA? Good Luck Wayne R. Gerdes Replies to this message: tlauro (Feb 12, 2005 9:41 am) williams3 (Feb 22, 2005 5:13 pm)
#89 of 223 Re: Clarification on my thoughts. [xcel] by tlauro Feb 12, 2005 (9:41 am)
Replying to: xcel (Feb 12, 2005 9:03 am) Wayne Thanks for the good reads. The Bluewater artical is one I've read before too. Now on the Trailblazer comment though, I have to say that I owned one of the first back in spring of 2001 and averaged 21mpg overall without a hitch. I was very active here at Edmunds back then. It was actually very good on gas...the I6 4200 motor that is. Not sure where the 9mpg note came from. Pehaps the V8 ?
#90 of 223 how about this view? by explorerx4 Feb 12, 2005 (7:11 pm)
the only reason mpg numbers are posted is because they are required by the government. in that case, if is to the advantage on the manufacturer, they advertise them. if it's wrong, blame the government.