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Hatchbacks Mazda3 MazdaSpeed3: Styling Impressions
548 messages, Last post on Aug 08, 2007 at 5:21 PM
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Replying to: autonomous (Aug 29, 2006 1:10 pm) I beg to differ. The ONLY models I can think of that use a hybrid powertrain to boost performance first and efficiency second would be the Honda Accord Hybrid and the various hybrids from Lexus (RX400h, GS450h and LS450h). In the case of the Accord, the hybrid version has a whooping 9hp advantage (244hp in the 'normal' version vs. 253 in the hybrid) and a 21 ftlbs of torque advantage (232 vs. 211). Couple that with about a 150lb weight penalty for the Accord Hybrid and you'll find that the power/weight ratio for the REGULAR version is actually slightly better (14.1 lbs/hp vs. 14.2 lbs/hp for the hybrid). Extra 'performance' for the hybrid version? Um......borderline maybe. I think the POINT of putting hybrid powertrains in the V6 models is so one can maintain essentially the same (and perhaps a smidge better) performance while getting measureably better fuel economy. The Camry Hybrid? Fine for economy with a dollop of performance. BUT, if I'm in the market for performance FIRST, I'm looking at the regular V6 edition, not the hybrid version. Ditto with the Civic Hybrid. The point being that for the COST and the amount of ACTUAL PERFORMANCE GAINED (not economy, performance), Mazda went the correct way with the turbo MZR. Honda managed less than a 4% boost in hp and a 10% boost in torque for their Accord Hybrid. For the Lexus 450h, the 3.5l V6 hybrid system is rated at 339hp and 267 ftlbs. The similar 3.5l V6 in the Avalon is rated at 268hp and 248 ftlbs. So Lexus managed a much better 26% jump in hp and 8% jump in torque for the 3.5l V6 in the (very expensive) 450h. But what about the turbo 2.3l DISI unit in the Speed3? Well, hp jumps from 160 to 264 (a 65% boost in hp) and torque is up from 150 to 280 (over an 85% boost in torque). Sure seems to me that from a PERFORMANCE standpoint (uh, performance IS the point here, right?), the turbo was MUCH more effective (and cheaper) than a hybrid. Misguided use of resources? Could we just PLEASE give this over-used cliche a rest? One could argue that ANY individual use of a motor vehicle over mass-transit (or bicycling) is a 'misguided use of resources'. Or owning (heating/cooling) a home larger than 1200 sf is a 'misguided use of resources' (not to mention the resources used in that home construction). Or going on vacation, or consuming too many calories, or using toomuchelectricity ornotrecylingallyourbottlesandcans yada yada yada ad nauseum infinitum. How in the hell did this topic morph into carping about Mazda not going down the hybrid path and talking about resource usage? The Speed3 is supposed to be about maximum FUN in an affordable, practical, reliable, stylish package. The Speed3 is NOT "well, let's build a car with slightly better performance BUT NOT TOO MUCH, and we'd better get better fuel economy at the same time because IT'S THE SOCIALLY RESPONSIBLE THING TO DO, and maybe we should use reconstituted seaweed paste for soundproofing material because we should USE RESOURCES WISELY". bleah. If management at Toyota still had the big brass balls that the guys at Mazda evidently have, I'd still be a Toyota fan. As it is now however, my current Toyota is my LAST Toyota.....
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Replying to: rorr (Aug 29, 2006 2:40 pm) I'm an ardent fan of Mazda and wish it to capture some portion of the future market but have concerns ... In other words, like you, I am for Mazda not against it. The Speed3 is supposed to be about maximum FUN in an affordable, practical, reliable, stylish package. Agreed. The questions I ask myself are: wasn't the Mazdaspeed6 supposed to have delivered that and why was it not a success? My answer is that it was not enough. I'm not saying that Mazda should build hybrids to get performance and efficiency. Mazda could build lighter vehicles, or decontent them, or introduce valve management, or refine its Renesis engine to be more fuel efficient, or a hundred other things. Strapping a turbo to an engine and adding several hundred pounds to a vehicle seems like an old solution. BMW, for example, improved the performance and efficiency of one of its latest vehicles by reducing the weight of the roof, thus lowering the centre of gravity and consequently improving its handling. An elegant solution from a company known for performance. The reference to misguided use of resources was not from an ecological but from a financial point of view. Mazda as you know is a branch of Ford (which is not in the best financial state at the moment). What do you think Ford will do if Mazda continues to produce vehicles that sell below expectations as the Mazdaspeed6 did? Finally, for the sake of Mazda I hope the MazdaSpeed3 is a success!
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Replying to: autonomous (Aug 30, 2006 8:44 am) For a company with (as you note) limited FINANCIAL resources, why try to go the hybrid route with it's HUGE R&D costs? COMPLETELY agree with you on the weight issue. The weight problem for the MS6 (mostly due to the questionable decision to make the MS6 an AWD design) is coupled with the lack of an automatic tranny where one would be welcomed (in the market for which the MS6 was aimed). I don't think a lack of fuel economy (is that what you are referring too?) was the 'problem' with the MS6. They missed THAT market with the Speed6, and lackluster sales are the result. OTOH, the Speed3 avoids the dual problem of cost and weight of the AWD system and targets a market (hot hatch) where a manual tranny is expected. One of the engineering problems with BMW's approach (which I applaud) is the fact that often times the weight reduction is achieved by using lighter (and MUCH more expensive) materials, rather than just cutting content. In the market the Mazda3 occupies, it would be financially difficult to cut weight by using expensive materials and content is also difficult to cut due to consumers 'comparing' various cars by looking at brochures and comparing standard features. To Mazda's credit, virtually all the weight gain for the Speed3 is due to PERFORMANCE enhancements (motor, suspension improvements, 6-spd trans, and structural strengthening) and in an effort to keep the weight down, they're not offering a sunroof (at least for now). Personally, I'm betting that the Speed3 will be a HUGE success and hopefully becomes a permanent edition to the Mazda stable.
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Replying to: rorr (Aug 30, 2006 9:07 am) Hope you're right! 
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This is an exert from the latest Sport Compact Car "Apex Predator" "For the last year, the sub $23K price range has been the domain of the GTI and Civic Si. But you simply can't compare those two to the Mazdaspeed3; it is really that good." There were also many, many other positive attributes in the article as well. I suggest you all run to your local news stand and pick up your copy today! 
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Replying to: aviboy97 (Aug 30, 2006 2:11 pm) |
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Replying to: seanwms6 (Aug 31, 2006 9:25 am) Do you have a purchase order stating that you will be purchasing the MS3 for S-Plan? Did you leave them a deposit?
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The Mazda Canada site has posted the price of the Mazdaspeed. It's interesting to compare US and Canadian prices and to see the markup of the 2007 Mazdaspeed3 over the 2007 Mazda3. It appears that the Mazdaspeed is a better deal in the good old USA! - Mazda3 s* (*aka 5 door GT) manual C$23400 ; U$17,575 - Mazdaspeed3 C$31000 ; U$22,240 - Markup of Mazdaspeed3 over Mazda3 C$ 7600 (32%); U$ 4,665 (26%) p.s. Considering the price of the Mazda6, the Mazdaspeed3 is a great deal.
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Replying to: aviboy97 (Aug 31, 2006 11:07 am)
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Replying to: seanwms6 (Aug 31, 2006 9:25 am) I predict that the initial enthusiasm for the MS3 will dampen significantly after the release of the Caliber SRT4. Unless Dodge makes a complete blunder, like a manufacturing defect that requires a recall, the SRT4 will dethrone the MS3 as the most powerful (and possibly the fastest) "hot hatch" in the $23K price range. Those who know better, of course, will buy the Mazda.  If the SRT4's MSRP is at or below that of the MS3, that will keep prices in check. And who knows if some other manufacturer will jump into the turbocharged compact-car arena to keep things interesting (I haven't heard anything, I'm just speculating). Me, I'm planning on waiting until September 2007 for a "leftover". If I can get an MS3 for under $20K, I will be very pleased! Thanks, Greg
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