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Hatchbacks Mazda3 MazdaSpeed3: Styling Impressions
548 messages, Last post on Aug 08, 2007 at 5:21 PM
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Replying to: audia8q (Aug 29, 2006 8:35 am) From Toyota: "Toyota has already sold more than 500,000 hybrid vehicles around the world, and continues to develop new versions of its hybrid power system to use in forthcoming vehicles. With the positive response from the market ... Toyota will achieve its goal of selling one million hybrid vehicles world-wide early in the next decade." What does this have to do with Mazdaspeed? Well, MSP is the niche line where Mazda gets to try out a new twist on a vehicle, something different and exciting and if it doesn't work, it can drop it after a year or two or if it does work, then share it with other platforms. Mazda turned to the turbo, something from their past and passed on this technology from the Mazdaspeed6 to the Mazdaspeed3 to the CX7 to the ... In other words, this is turning out to be more than a two year phenomenon applying to a single model but rather a major investment across multiple lines using this technology. Will this investment pay off and generate a half million sales like Toyota's hybrid strategy has so far?
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Replying to: autonomous (Aug 29, 2006 9:56 am) Well, MSP is the niche line where Mazda gets to try out a new twist on a vehicle, something different and exciting and if it doesn't work, it can drop it after a year or two or if it does work, then share it with other platforms That is not Mazdaspeed. Mazdaspeed is a production Mazda that offers what enthusiasts, or people in the race industry have had access to for years, Mazdaspeed performance. It is not their test lab for technology. When you invest millions of dollars into technology, you rarely incorporate it into one vehicle. It is more business like to invest your millions, or billions, in multiple vehicles. Like the MZR 2.3 DISI Turbo in MS6, MS3, CX-7. Will this investment pay off and generate a half million sales like Toyota's hybrid strategy has so far? Mazda's buyer is far from the Toyota buyer. Mazda's idea of what they feel a vehicle should be vastly differs from Toyota. If the Mazda does sell 500,000 MZR 2.3L DISI Turbo vehicles, then, I guess a small company like Mazda accomplished what a mega giant like Toyota did as well. I would think that speaks highly for Mazda.  Mazda has already sold nearly 1 million of their most famous nitch vehicle, the MX-5. Mazda knows what they are doing. Now, back to the MS3!! 
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Replying to: aviboy97 (Aug 29, 2006 12:17 pm) You're right: GM is the leader for the moment, however, Toyota is the most profitable. Many predict Toyota will assume the mantle of both (most profit and most production) later this year. From BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5244430.stm): Toyota, the world's most profitable carmaker, has reported a 39% rise in first-quarter income ... Toyota's global unit sales should soon overtake market-leader General Motors. The Japanese giant sold 2.09 million vehicles around the world in its latest quarter, up from 1.95 million during the same period a year earlier. Toyota is doing particularly well in North America, where it sold 747,300 vehicles during the quarter, up more than 16% ... Unless Mazdaspeed's turbo variations of the Protege, Mazda6, Mazda 3 ... are tied to a strategy for the future this may be a misguided use of resources useful only for the short-term. I believe Toyota and Honda have a better formula for the future: deliver performance + efficiency. The Accord/Camry/Lexus hybrids offer both excellent performance and improved efficiency; these will move from being niche vehicles to leaders of the brand and eventually the segment. p.s. I'm an ardent fan of Mazda and wish it to capture some portion of the future market but have concerns ...
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Replying to: autonomous (Aug 29, 2006 1:10 pm) I happen to agree with you, it will not be long before GM is overtaken by Toyota for #1. I believe Toyota and Honda have a better formula for the future: deliver performance + efficiency. The Accord/Camry/Lexus hybrids offer both excellent performance and improved efficiency; these will move from being niche vehicles to leaders of the brand and eventually the segment. The problem is price. The added cost of buying a hybrid now vs. a conventional gasoline engine is pretty high. Maybe Mazda can release a performace designed hybrid once cost comes down?? Mazda seems to be leaning twards the sport side of the industry, and is more of a nitch brand that is trying to expand. Which I happen to like.  I understand what you are trying to say. |
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Replying to: autonomous (Aug 29, 2006 1:10 pm) I beg to differ. The ONLY models I can think of that use a hybrid powertrain to boost performance first and efficiency second would be the Honda Accord Hybrid and the various hybrids from Lexus (RX400h, GS450h and LS450h). In the case of the Accord, the hybrid version has a whooping 9hp advantage (244hp in the 'normal' version vs. 253 in the hybrid) and a 21 ftlbs of torque advantage (232 vs. 211). Couple that with about a 150lb weight penalty for the Accord Hybrid and you'll find that the power/weight ratio for the REGULAR version is actually slightly better (14.1 lbs/hp vs. 14.2 lbs/hp for the hybrid). Extra 'performance' for the hybrid version? Um......borderline maybe. I think the POINT of putting hybrid powertrains in the V6 models is so one can maintain essentially the same (and perhaps a smidge better) performance while getting measureably better fuel economy. The Camry Hybrid? Fine for economy with a dollop of performance. BUT, if I'm in the market for performance FIRST, I'm looking at the regular V6 edition, not the hybrid version. Ditto with the Civic Hybrid. The point being that for the COST and the amount of ACTUAL PERFORMANCE GAINED (not economy, performance), Mazda went the correct way with the turbo MZR. Honda managed less than a 4% boost in hp and a 10% boost in torque for their Accord Hybrid. For the Lexus 450h, the 3.5l V6 hybrid system is rated at 339hp and 267 ftlbs. The similar 3.5l V6 in the Avalon is rated at 268hp and 248 ftlbs. So Lexus managed a much better 26% jump in hp and 8% jump in torque for the 3.5l V6 in the (very expensive) 450h. But what about the turbo 2.3l DISI unit in the Speed3? Well, hp jumps from 160 to 264 (a 65% boost in hp) and torque is up from 150 to 280 (over an 85% boost in torque). Sure seems to me that from a PERFORMANCE standpoint (uh, performance IS the point here, right?), the turbo was MUCH more effective (and cheaper) than a hybrid. Misguided use of resources? Could we just PLEASE give this over-used cliche a rest? One could argue that ANY individual use of a motor vehicle over mass-transit (or bicycling) is a 'misguided use of resources'. Or owning (heating/cooling) a home larger than 1200 sf is a 'misguided use of resources' (not to mention the resources used in that home construction). Or going on vacation, or consuming too many calories, or using toomuchelectricity ornotrecylingallyourbottlesandcans yada yada yada ad nauseum infinitum. How in the hell did this topic morph into carping about Mazda not going down the hybrid path and talking about resource usage? The Speed3 is supposed to be about maximum FUN in an affordable, practical, reliable, stylish package. The Speed3 is NOT "well, let's build a car with slightly better performance BUT NOT TOO MUCH, and we'd better get better fuel economy at the same time because IT'S THE SOCIALLY RESPONSIBLE THING TO DO, and maybe we should use reconstituted seaweed paste for soundproofing material because we should USE RESOURCES WISELY". bleah. If management at Toyota still had the big brass balls that the guys at Mazda evidently have, I'd still be a Toyota fan. As it is now however, my current Toyota is my LAST Toyota.....
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Replying to: rorr (Aug 29, 2006 2:40 pm) I'm an ardent fan of Mazda and wish it to capture some portion of the future market but have concerns ... In other words, like you, I am for Mazda not against it. The Speed3 is supposed to be about maximum FUN in an affordable, practical, reliable, stylish package. Agreed. The questions I ask myself are: wasn't the Mazdaspeed6 supposed to have delivered that and why was it not a success? My answer is that it was not enough. I'm not saying that Mazda should build hybrids to get performance and efficiency. Mazda could build lighter vehicles, or decontent them, or introduce valve management, or refine its Renesis engine to be more fuel efficient, or a hundred other things. Strapping a turbo to an engine and adding several hundred pounds to a vehicle seems like an old solution. BMW, for example, improved the performance and efficiency of one of its latest vehicles by reducing the weight of the roof, thus lowering the centre of gravity and consequently improving its handling. An elegant solution from a company known for performance. The reference to misguided use of resources was not from an ecological but from a financial point of view. Mazda as you know is a branch of Ford (which is not in the best financial state at the moment). What do you think Ford will do if Mazda continues to produce vehicles that sell below expectations as the Mazdaspeed6 did? Finally, for the sake of Mazda I hope the MazdaSpeed3 is a success!
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Replying to: autonomous (Aug 30, 2006 8:44 am) For a company with (as you note) limited FINANCIAL resources, why try to go the hybrid route with it's HUGE R&D costs? COMPLETELY agree with you on the weight issue. The weight problem for the MS6 (mostly due to the questionable decision to make the MS6 an AWD design) is coupled with the lack of an automatic tranny where one would be welcomed (in the market for which the MS6 was aimed). I don't think a lack of fuel economy (is that what you are referring too?) was the 'problem' with the MS6. They missed THAT market with the Speed6, and lackluster sales are the result. OTOH, the Speed3 avoids the dual problem of cost and weight of the AWD system and targets a market (hot hatch) where a manual tranny is expected. One of the engineering problems with BMW's approach (which I applaud) is the fact that often times the weight reduction is achieved by using lighter (and MUCH more expensive) materials, rather than just cutting content. In the market the Mazda3 occupies, it would be financially difficult to cut weight by using expensive materials and content is also difficult to cut due to consumers 'comparing' various cars by looking at brochures and comparing standard features. To Mazda's credit, virtually all the weight gain for the Speed3 is due to PERFORMANCE enhancements (motor, suspension improvements, 6-spd trans, and structural strengthening) and in an effort to keep the weight down, they're not offering a sunroof (at least for now). Personally, I'm betting that the Speed3 will be a HUGE success and hopefully becomes a permanent edition to the Mazda stable.
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Replying to: rorr (Aug 30, 2006 9:07 am) Hope you're right! 
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This is an exert from the latest Sport Compact Car "Apex Predator" "For the last year, the sub $23K price range has been the domain of the GTI and Civic Si. But you simply can't compare those two to the Mazdaspeed3; it is really that good." There were also many, many other positive attributes in the article as well. I suggest you all run to your local news stand and pick up your copy today!
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Replying to: aviboy97 (Aug 30, 2006 2:11 pm) |
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