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Sedans Ultimate AWD Sports Sedans
828 messages, Last post on Oct 03, 2009 at 9:40 PM
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Replying to: shipo (Nov 18, 2006 11:00 pm) -juice
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Replying to: ateixeira (Nov 20, 2006 7:48 am) If so they probably don't offer it on the AWD models because those buyers tend to want ground clearance for driving over snow, sort of the point of wanting AWD in the first place. I beg to differ. Many folks believe (correctly or otherwise, an argument for another thread) that AWD is an asset to a cars' handling, however, with BMWs, one cannot order AWD and a Sport Suspension, unlike what you can order over at your local Audi store. In this instance, Audi has it correct as they offer at least the A4 (and A6 IIRC) as either 2WD or AWD and both can be had with or without the Sport Suspension. Said another way, an Audi A4 Quattro SP with the 3.1 liter V6 should pretty much suck the doors off a 330xi SP on a closed course track. Best Regards, Shipo |
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At the end of the day, the Carrera 4 S should suck the the doors of most RWD and ALL AWD street legal cars on a closed course track and spit the rest of the car into the weeds! Just a matter of cash and if you are in proper physical condition to get in/out of the car and can recover after each drive in the salt baths!  On the other hand, it would be nice to have a Bentley Conti. GT for those stiff back days!  Regards, OW
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Replying to: circlew (Nov 20, 2006 10:13 am) Best Regards, Shipo
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Replying to: shipo (Nov 20, 2006 11:10 am) My point is that that the AWD allows faster track time due to the better adhesion. All things being equal, weight/ride height, AWD will win the day. If Audi does this better it is because they are ahead of BMW from longer experience and across many different model classes. I applaud your opinion but let's see if the '07 335xi offers any resistance to your proposed duel. Regards, OW
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Replying to: circlew (Nov 20, 2006 12:48 pm) My point is that that the AWD allows faster track time due to the better adhesion. All things being equal, weight/ride height, AWD will win the day. The think is, all things are rarely equal, and even if they were I would dispute that statement. First off, AWD is heavy and Audi's arguably superior Torsen based system is even heavier than most. In cornering and braking, that extra weight is very much a detriment. Secondly, tires only have so much adhesion on any given surface and when a front tire is asked to both turn and apply power to the pavement, the amount of accelerative forces at any given moment directly and proportionally reduces the ability for the tire to provide lateral grip. So, while two otherwise identical cars, one RWD and one AWD, might have steady state similar cornering abilities, start applying power and the AWD car starts loosing front end cornering ability. True there are some cars with AWD that will outperform a competitors’ similar RWD car, however, is it the AWD system that is the differentiating factor or is the AWD car simply a better designed car? Regarding the Audi A4 versus the 330i (roughly an apples to apples comparison) the following would most likely be the results at a closed course track: 1 - BMW 330i SP 2 - Audi A4 3.2 Quattro (with Sport Suspension) 3 - BMW 330i non-SP 4 - Audi A4 3.2 Quattro (without Sport Suspension) 5 - BMW 330xi SP 6 - Audi A4 3.2 FWD (with Sport Suspension) 7 - Audi A4 3.2 FWD (without Sport Suspension) Best Regards, Shipo
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I have driven an a4 3.2L SP Q on the track, and it had a lot of plow, quite a bit more than a non-SP RWD(*) 3-series. Not sure how this translates to a 330xi, but i wouldn't be so sure that an a4 would win the proposed race. I had been toying with the idea of a s60R as a dark horse for the next davemobile, for AWD turbo goodness, but i can't see why i would with the 335xi now coming down the pipeline.
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Replying to: dhanley (Nov 20, 2006 2:01 pm) Best Regards, Shipo |
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Replying to: shipo (Nov 20, 2006 1:24 pm) I agree your view of all things never really are equal, that is why we seek the best design. Your description of the physical forces makes sense except that I would add it depends clearly on the pavement conditions in the corners, not any given surface. If the approach angle is too sever and you are in a car that tends to understeer, AWD should work for the lateral traction of the front tires to help the car get through faster by pulling the car through after the apex. Perhaps the design is not here yet in the AWD sedan segment that will top your AWD vs. RWD list but I'll wager change is a coming. So, for your ultimate AWD list is: 1 - Audi A4 3.2 Quattro (with Sport Suspension) 2 - Audi A4 3.2 Quattro (without Sport Suspension) 3 - BMW 330xi SP I assume the A4 has a true sport suspension where the Bimmer is lacking. Best Regards, OW
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Replying to: circlew (Nov 21, 2006 5:14 am) I've been hearing the whole "Pull the car through..." thing for years, however, I've never seen any scientific or technical explanation confirming that as a fact or debunking it as a myth. Assuming for the moment that that happens to be true, it would seem logical that an AWD car designed as a FWD (Audi in this case) vehicle would benefit from the AWD application much more so than would a properly balanced RWD (BMW in this case) car which would tend to oversteer at the limit. Still and all, I believe that your 1, 2, 3 list from above is probably accurate as the A4 Quattro is indeed offered with a true sport suspension. Best Regards, Shipo
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