Last post on Feb 08, 2012 at 8:57 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Audi A4, Volvo S60 R, Subaru Legacy, Audi S4, Mazda MAZDASPEED MAZDA6, Sedan
May 06, 2005 (11:09 am)
My point is that many German car fans brag about how superior their cars handle, how well they brake, etc etc - swear these cars are the best at this and that yet they are going to salvage yards to pull rear Disc brakes assemblies off the back of 20 year old Volvo 240(s) to put on their similar vintage or newer BMW - i think that says a lot.
You are often way overcharged for the performance you get with German makes. You may get drums brakes(recent history), the quality isn't that great etc etc. I know if i go buy a used Volvo 2 series, 7 series,8 series, 9 series, etc it will always have 4 wheel discs - the engines are robust, the transmissions are robust
Yet these little Bimmer/Audi heads surrounding me at work who probably haven't turned as many wrenches as I (and some have never even owned a BMW or Audi) will swear how superior these German marks are and have been for decades. I guess hollywood did a good job of building that image in their heads. Just because something is more expensive and may allow you to oversteer more easily doesn't make it better.
I had a 1990 Volvo 740 Turbo - co-worker had a 1995 or newer 3 series and bragged how his car could take me - I offered to pay for track time and meet him - he always declined. Was he afraid his tranny was going to drop out if he pushed it hard ?
Yeah there are lot leased BMW's, Audi's and VW in the parking lot wear I work. ($400 a month to lease a Jetta ? with $2K down a few years ago- it's all about fashion not quality)
By the way isn't the Volvo S80 the oldest model on the market out of the sedans being compared and is FWD ? Big deal it came in last in the comparison. Compare it and Drive it for yourself. Last time I looked BMW's weren't doing to hot in comparions against some of the Japanese and American competitors either.
I've worked for a mechanic (he has a 240 with 800,000 + miles) while i was in college and drove everything from gray market BMW 7 series, Porsche 928's and American muscle - sorry the German marks never impressed me over Volvo - especially when you factored price.
Spec out a Volvo S60R against less expensive Japanese competition the price difference isn't that huge when you consider what comes standard on the R.
I like older SAAB 9000 Aeros but as with Audi 5000 - if you got an automatic you could count on replacing it. I spoke to a SAAB mechanic and he said he couldn't afford to own a SAAB and drove a Volvo 740 Turbo. - that helped make my decision to stay away from SAAB. SAAB did more readily have more advancements in terms of performance than Volvo in the late 80's and very early 90's but at what price ? Reliability, long-term affordibility ?
As far as Ultimate AWD sedans I'm still waiting on you pro-Audi people to put up some numbers (maybe i missed them ?). Slalom. acceleration etc etc.
#110 of 855 Sweden revisited
May 06, 2005 (11:29 am)
Lately, at least, Saab's reliability numbers have been better than Volvos (per CR).
I realize that wasn't the case a decade ago, but it is now.
#111 of 855 Re: s40 [swedishiron1]
May 06, 2005 (12:02 pm)
"many German car fans brag about how superior their cars handle, how well they brake, etc etc - swear these cars are the best at this and that yet they are going to salvage yards to pull rear Disc brakes assemblies off the back of 20 year old Volvo 240"
Really? They are? And, again, how does this relate to ultimate AWD sport sedan, even if true?
I mean, for example, TODAY you can't get a BMW without dynamic stability control. On the s40, volvo's best handling car, it's an option, and a lot of cars on the lot don't have it. Should we then conclude volvo's not a serous player in safety? This is a more reasonable argument than yours, i think: at least it's current.
I mean, ok, volvo built great long lasting cars 20 years ago. But, eh, so what? Are the engineers and design goals the same? Those were RWD for starters.
It's great that you're a brand fan, but this "us vs them" mentality doesn't win converts, you know. I'll certainly look at the s60R before i buy a car again, but i think it's got pluses and minuses and is not top echelon, nor would i expect it to be for 34K. Here are some assessments that seem reasonable to me:
#112 of 855 Re: Volvo [ateixeira]
May 07, 2005 (10:27 am)
I know that- that's why they can't compete with the Germans. Besides, Mercedes puts luxury and safety first.
#113 of 855 Re: Audi TT and A3 [ateixeira]
May 17, 2005 (9:23 am)
"Not necessarily, AWD shows its benefits even on that dry track. That's why the EVO and STi come from the factory with summer tires only. "
So does the S60R....and even the A4 2.0T with sport package.
#114 of 855 sedan rear windows
May 21, 2005 (1:24 pm)
do any of the sports sedan makers offer rear windows which open completely?
May 23, 2005 (7:23 am)
Never seen anything like that before.
Certain EVO models have a rear wiper. That's common in Japan.
#116 of 855 re Swedes
May 23, 2005 (7:53 am)
I have to say here in the UK Volvos are not really up there with Audi, MB or BMW. ( & I have a C70 convert.) Especially the S40 which is based on the Ford Focus. Only certain Jags have any cachet the XJ, and S type. The xtype is based on the Ford Mondeo and smaller, more expensive. Nobody would think that VW are a luxury car maker. Honda have a better reputation than VW. I don't think that VW have helped themselves by using one car platform for so many different cars e.g. the Golf is used for the Skoda Octavia, Seat Leon & Altea, Audi A3, TT & A4. Now that Honda have started to make a decent Diesel engine their sales will rise even more. With regards to reliability the most unreliable car in the UK according to the Uk version of CR was the Audi TT.
#117 of 855 Platform Sharing
May 23, 2005 (8:30 am)
Yeah, Audi TT is based on the old VW Golf (8+ years?).
Sharing platforms isn't the same as selling a clone. I think Volvo has distinguished their car well, not to mention it was a good platform to begin with.
#118 of 855 Re: LOL....oh my God thanks for the new material [rjorge3]
May 23, 2005 (10:04 am)
This is absolutely hilarious. Four guys driving $200K worth of auto playing golf at Van Cortlandt park!
For the record, I don't know what "ultimate AWD" means, but I just took delivery of an S40 T5 AWD M and am very happy with it.
I didn't even bother looking at the Audi due to (i) price -- my S40 is fully loaded at $29,500 while a comparable Audi (3.0) would easily run into the mid-30, which was outside of my range, and (ii) looks. I actually like the look of the Audi a lot, but I must see 50 a day. Same with the three series. There are so many on the road that they are becoming more like a honda accord in terms of whether or not you take any notice of them.
The S40 has all the performance I need (but maybe not all I desire).