Last post on Feb 08, 2012 at 8:57 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Audi A4, Volvo S60 R, Subaru Legacy, Audi S4, Mazda MAZDASPEED MAZDA6, Sedan
#103 of 855 Re: s40 [swedishiron1]
Apr 28, 2005 (8:23 am)
"the Europeans actually consider the S80 T6/Executive versions as smart alternative to costlier versions of the Audi A8 and BMW 7 series"
I frankly don't think those are competitive cars. I've driven the 7 and s80t6 and the s80 is a pig compared to the 7. The handling isn't even close, and the s80's ride and interior don't measure up either. However, the s80 is quite a bit less costly than the 7. I think the s80 competes more with the 5-series. If you go to the volvo website, they compare the s80 to the acura RL and the audi a6, not the a8 and 7.
"The S60R despite being much cheaper than the S4 will still run with it in terms of performance. "
The fact that you repeat this in every post doesn't necessarily make it so. Yes, it gets to 60 about as fast. There is a lot more to "running with it" then 0-60 time. Otherwise, the subaru forester XT makes the s60R overpriced and redundant, then, doesn't it?
"Hell BMW had drums up until the early 90's on lesser variants of the 3 series."
Really? I can't find drum parts listed for a 1990 318i. There are ABS parts listed, though, something not listed for a 1990 240.
May 03, 2005 (1:08 pm)
"Really? I can't find drum parts listed for a 1990 318i. There are ABS parts listed, though, something not listed for a 1990 240. "
Lesser European 3 series had drums on them into the 1990's. I was utterly shocked when I realized the 1985 Audi 5000 I purchased had drums on the rear - bad assumption on my part - I just assumed since my 1978 240 wagon had 4 wheel disc a later model "Performance" sedan like an Audi would.
So all the European journalist are wrong win they compare the S80T6/ Executive editions against car such as the A8 and recommend it as a less costly alternative to the BMW 7 series ? I think that says a lot for a car that at least in the states sells for $20,000 or more, less than the cars its being compared to.
When the S80 came out I believe it had more interior room than the BMW 5 series that was available and it offered in the Executive versions, rear seat refrigerator, LCD screens in the rear head rest etc - features available as options on cars such as the BMW 7 series, Audi A8 available. Armoring was also available.
Have any of you Audiphiles posted any numbers...slalom etc showing the S4 will actually out perform the S60R ? All you talk about is the interior is better (questionable).
#105 of 855 Re: s40 [swedishiron1]
May 03, 2005 (6:38 pm)
I don't think many people brag about Audi... they brag about Mercedes and BMW. By the way, you're implying that I don't like Volvos- I do. They're perfectly good cars. I'm just saying, they're really not luxurious enough (yet) to really pose a threat to big luxury companies like: Acura, Audi, BMW, Jaguar, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, and (oh my god!) Volkswagen. Saab may be a little bit nicer than Volvos too, if not as nice overall.
I just don't think 'special' when I see a Volvo. I think 'special' when I look at my brand-new S4 Cabriolet, but not a Volvo, not even the S60R. I don't know why- I still admire the S60R. It's a cool car, and better for the money than an S4, C55, or M3.
By the way, if Audi doesn't have anything special over Volvo, I don't think Volvo has anything special over Audi, either.
#106 of 855 Re: Audi vs. Volvo [swedishiron1]
May 03, 2005 (6:48 pm)
I don't understand why you think Volvo can even match up to any European company... that may be harsh, but it's so true. In June 2004, Car&Driver compared:
Audi A6 3.0 quattro
BMW 530i Automatic
Cadillac CTS 3.2
Chrysler 300 V6 (2005)
Jaguar S-Type 3.0
Lexus GS 300
Volvo S80 T5
Eventually, the S80 came in last... the 530 was next, then the A6, and so on... It's just that Volvo doesn't have the refinement, the innovation, the luxury, the power, to compete with European companies. It actually may have the power, but not really the performance cars, and there's a difference. It's obvious that you'd like Volvo- look at your name. And, they have the features (TV, refridgerator), but that's not necessarily luxury. It's just features. It's like throwing a plasma TV into a Kia Rio and calling it luxury at its best. Why not Saab, though? They may not be plush, but they're more stylish than Volvos. To me, at least.
But Sweden doesn't have what it takes, and it will never, ever, catch up with Japan and Korea's growing car economies.
May 04, 2005 (8:00 am)
They're doing better than you imply, the S40/V50 have been eating Saab 9-2x's lunch in the showrooms. And the XC90 has the best resale of any luxury SUV, beating BMW and Mercedes.
I think you are underestimating Volvo. They're known for safety first, not necessarily luxury, but they're holding their own.
Also, the models you are picking on are older and due for replacement.
#108 of 855 Re: s40 [swedishiron1]
May 04, 2005 (5:29 pm)
"So all the European journalist are wrong win they compare the S80T6/ Executive editions against car such as the A8 and recommend it as a less costly alternative to the BMW 7 series ?"
Really? Every european journalist is doing this? I admit that i don't read every single euro car mag, but i don't see a whole lot of comparisons between the s80 and 745, etc. In fact, the last few mid-level sedans left the s80 out as "old and not competitive."
As for you claim that "lesser european threes" had drums on them until the nineties--even if this claim of your is true, eh, so what? Are we supposed to debate "the ultimate AWD sedan" based on the fact that you claim that some of the others had drum brakes on them in '85? That's an awfully weak argument, IMO.
May 06, 2005 (11:09 am)
My point is that many German car fans brag about how superior their cars handle, how well they brake, etc etc - swear these cars are the best at this and that yet they are going to salvage yards to pull rear Disc brakes assemblies off the back of 20 year old Volvo 240(s) to put on their similar vintage or newer BMW - i think that says a lot.
You are often way overcharged for the performance you get with German makes. You may get drums brakes(recent history), the quality isn't that great etc etc. I know if i go buy a used Volvo 2 series, 7 series,8 series, 9 series, etc it will always have 4 wheel discs - the engines are robust, the transmissions are robust
Yet these little Bimmer/Audi heads surrounding me at work who probably haven't turned as many wrenches as I (and some have never even owned a BMW or Audi) will swear how superior these German marks are and have been for decades. I guess hollywood did a good job of building that image in their heads. Just because something is more expensive and may allow you to oversteer more easily doesn't make it better.
I had a 1990 Volvo 740 Turbo - co-worker had a 1995 or newer 3 series and bragged how his car could take me - I offered to pay for track time and meet him - he always declined. Was he afraid his tranny was going to drop out if he pushed it hard ?
Yeah there are lot leased BMW's, Audi's and VW in the parking lot wear I work. ($400 a month to lease a Jetta ? with $2K down a few years ago- it's all about fashion not quality)
By the way isn't the Volvo S80 the oldest model on the market out of the sedans being compared and is FWD ? Big deal it came in last in the comparison. Compare it and Drive it for yourself. Last time I looked BMW's weren't doing to hot in comparions against some of the Japanese and American competitors either.
I've worked for a mechanic (he has a 240 with 800,000 + miles) while i was in college and drove everything from gray market BMW 7 series, Porsche 928's and American muscle - sorry the German marks never impressed me over Volvo - especially when you factored price.
Spec out a Volvo S60R against less expensive Japanese competition the price difference isn't that huge when you consider what comes standard on the R.
I like older SAAB 9000 Aeros but as with Audi 5000 - if you got an automatic you could count on replacing it. I spoke to a SAAB mechanic and he said he couldn't afford to own a SAAB and drove a Volvo 740 Turbo. - that helped make my decision to stay away from SAAB. SAAB did more readily have more advancements in terms of performance than Volvo in the late 80's and very early 90's but at what price ? Reliability, long-term affordibility ?
As far as Ultimate AWD sedans I'm still waiting on you pro-Audi people to put up some numbers (maybe i missed them ?). Slalom. acceleration etc etc.
#110 of 855 Sweden revisited
May 06, 2005 (11:29 am)
Lately, at least, Saab's reliability numbers have been better than Volvos (per CR).
I realize that wasn't the case a decade ago, but it is now.
#111 of 855 Re: s40 [swedishiron1]
May 06, 2005 (12:02 pm)
"many German car fans brag about how superior their cars handle, how well they brake, etc etc - swear these cars are the best at this and that yet they are going to salvage yards to pull rear Disc brakes assemblies off the back of 20 year old Volvo 240"
Really? They are? And, again, how does this relate to ultimate AWD sport sedan, even if true?
I mean, for example, TODAY you can't get a BMW without dynamic stability control. On the s40, volvo's best handling car, it's an option, and a lot of cars on the lot don't have it. Should we then conclude volvo's not a serous player in safety? This is a more reasonable argument than yours, i think: at least it's current.
I mean, ok, volvo built great long lasting cars 20 years ago. But, eh, so what? Are the engineers and design goals the same? Those were RWD for starters.
It's great that you're a brand fan, but this "us vs them" mentality doesn't win converts, you know. I'll certainly look at the s60R before i buy a car again, but i think it's got pluses and minuses and is not top echelon, nor would i expect it to be for 34K. Here are some assessments that seem reasonable to me:
#112 of 855 Re: Volvo [ateixeira]
May 07, 2005 (10:27 am)
I know that- that's why they can't compete with the Germans. Besides, Mercedes puts luxury and safety first.