Last post on Apr 02, 2008 at 8:01 AM
You are in the BMW M/M3/M6
What is this discussion about?
BMW M3, Coupe, Convertible
#140 of 204 Re: 06/07 $911 Vs 07 $M3.. hmm [jmaroun]
Aug 24, 2006 (7:29 am)
The 2007 base model 911 is already out, notwithstanding Edmund's delay in getting info on their new car info website. My dealer (Hunt Valley Porsche in Baltimore) shows some 2007 911's in their inventory. Check their website.
Comparing (speculatively) the 2007 911 to 2007 M3:
Price: the 911 will be more, but how much needs to be determined. I got a significant discount on my 911S Cab last fall. When I had previously shopped M3's there was much less negotiating willingness on DC area dealers. The downside is that Porsche option lists are a mile long. If you can put aside the temptation to load it with do-dads, a base 911 should be competitive. But keep the $920 sport chrono box checked. It increases the throttle response of the 911 to the point of feeling like you've got 30 extra horsepower.
Function: The 911 has rear seats that work great for up to 100+/- miles for my two kids (8 & 11). That's it. Small front trunk. No spare tire. The M3 is more versitile, albeit not enough for me to get rid of my sedan (TL). As far as "harshness" and drivability, my 911 has logged 9,000 miles over 11 months, my TL less than 3,000 during that time, mostly when I needed the added capacity. And I'm a hair short of 50, so my tolerance for getting beat up is lower than it was 20 years ago. That should tell you something.
Form: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but it's hard for me not to look at the 911 and smile. The interior refinements that came in 2005 with the 997 model make it a much nicer interior as well. It looks like a purposeful sports car. BMW went in the wrong direction in my opinion with their interior design and i-Drive. I personally like the interior of the previous M5 to the new one. Hopefully, the new M3 will be better in that department.
Performance: The M3 drives like a coupe. Arguably the best coupe in the world. But it's not a sports car. The 911 is, in spite of those little rear seats. Acceleration should be comparable. Handling and cornering favors the sports car 911, if not in absolute numbers, certainly in subjective feel.
I'm a fan of the 911. But it's not for everyone. Good luck.
#141 of 204 Re: 06/07 $911 Vs 07 $M3.. hmm [habitat1]
Aug 24, 2006 (12:01 pm)
I always want to ask a Porsche owner on Porsche's reliability record. Aside from it is from car to car even from same manufacturer, how reliable is your 911, and how does the upkeep and repair cost of 911 compare to you TL? I got the impression that 911 has bulletproof quality
#142 of 204 Re: 06/07 $911 Vs 07 $M3.. hmm [proe]
Aug 25, 2006 (6:02 pm)
My 2005 911S Cab is only 11 months old, with 8,800 miles, so it's too early to tell how it will do long term. But so far, so good. I had one "service needed" warning light come on. Turned out to be a slight crack in one of the spark plug coils that they replaced under warranty. Other than that, the car runs perfect and is more everyday driving friendly than I expected. On a recent trip to our second home, I averaged 27.8 mpg on the 360 mile return trip at an average of 74 mph. Not bad for a car that can scoot to 60 in about 4.2 seconds.
I'm probably going to break down next month and have a one year, 10,000 mile oil change and check-up done just for my own peace of mind and anal retentiveness. But, if you can believe this, the 997's first scheduled service is not until 2 years or 20,000 miles.
This is my first Porsche (first non-Japanese car, in fact) and I admit I was a little nervous. But after doing my research, I found that most owners of 911's had few, if any problems. And, after getting the Cayenne bugs worked out over the last couple years, Porsche managed to steal the #1 spot on JD Powers Initial Quality Survey from Lexus. I can see why.
Our TL and MDX are fine low maintenance vehicles, as one would expect from Acura. But my former Honda S2000 beat them both for fit and finish and build quality, IMO. It was hand built in Japan and probably qualifies for the most fun, with the least worry you could have in any car. Not a 911 S Cab, but a hell of a car for a third the price.
#143 of 204 apples & oranges
Aug 26, 2006 (11:48 am)
I was talking to a friend of mine about the idea of getting a base Porche instead of the up-coming M3. His reply, "Isn't a Porche more of an expensive rally car?", and suggested a comparison of the 911 to the WRX or STI would be more logical. The M3 is a true four door sports sedan that is very track worthy. The 911 is a pure-bread race car.
For me, I'd like my car to be qualified to do the following:
- take to the track
- beat almost anything on the street
- look really cool!! head turner
- take a couple friends to the club on a Saturday night
- take a hot date out to dinner on a Week night
- look respectable driving to a wedding
- comfortably take my mother out to dinner
- fit a mid-sized surf board in my car on the way to Delmar
- put a cooler in the trunk for beers after surfing
- fit all the groceries in my trunk after going to Costco
Ideally, I'd be able to do these things in my car. Not being rich nor married, I suppose practicality is important. I suspect the Porchce would struggle with some of the above tasks..
#144 of 204 Re: apples & oranges [jmaroun]
Aug 26, 2006 (6:31 pm)
"...and suggested a comparison of the 911 to the WRX or STI would be more logical".
Your friend needs to check into drug re-hab. And I'd say the same thing if he compared the M3 to those boy-racers, (which some folks do, since all three are two door 4 passenger coupes, not sports cars).
On your "qualifications" list, here's how I would rate the 911:
- take to the track: No problem.
- beat almost anything on the street: Porsche conservatively rates the 911S at 0-60 in 4.6. It's been tested at 3.9 to 4.2 by the car magazines. I think that qualifies. And when you throw in twisties, you have to go into Ferrari territory to match or beat it.
- look really cool / head turner: Well, it's got a "bonnet" not a trunk. And it has the engine in the back. That's "cool" according to my 8 year old daughter, her friends, and their dads.
- take a couple of friends to the club on a Saturday night: One no problem, two can work if they are women (or short guys) with a combined height of less than about 10'8" or so. And the club isn't too far away. But if all three are 6' plus, one will be in need of several drinks upon arrival.
- take a hot date out to dinner on a week night: Perfect. I average one or two a week with my wife and kids.
- look respectable driving to a wedding: careful, the bride may ditch the groom when she sees your car.
- comfortably take my mother out to dinner: mine is 88. She can get in and out of the 911 easier than our MDX.
- fit a mid size surf board...: I don't surf, but that sounds like a problem. However, I can take a friend and two sets of golf bags in the back with the jump seats down.
- Put a cooler in the trunk for beers....: You don't think we golf sober, do you?
- fit all my groceries in the trunk after going to Costco: My wife is the Costco freak, but I've filled the bonnet with 3-4 bags and the rest go in the rear seat (I have a Cab, that makes it easier to load).
There is no doubt that although the 911 can satisfy most of your requirements, the M3 would do the practical ones a little easier. But the 911 is a sports car and the performance is world class, especially the "S" model with the 30 extra horsepower and standard adjustable suspension. I tend to be a "substance" guy and think the M3 is a tremendous car. But I've heard others criticize the M3 because "everywhere you turn, there goes another 3 series". Not an issue for me, but from some of your requirements, you might prefer the distinctive image and appearance of the 911 over the M3.
One thing not on your list of requirments is "fit and finish". The build quality and attention to detail on a 911 is extraordinary. After nearly a year and 8,800 miles, I still sit in my 911 (997) for about 30 seconds after I turn the engine off, looking at the interior and wondering what the heck they drive in heaven? And if you can get out and walk away from a 911 without looking back at least once, you are a better man than me.
You really can't go wrong with either the M3 or 911. And they have absolutely nothing in common with those other cars your friend mentioned.
#145 of 204 2006 M3 Convertible. Good Deal?
Sep 02, 2006 (11:18 am)
I'm looking at a 2006 M3 convertible that the sales manager built and drove. It has 1,800 miles on it. It is silver grey w/ the awesome cinnamon leather (this combo was special order; it is not a combo in the catalog). It a 6-speed with cold package, lumbar, xenon, hk sound and 19" M wheels. I am having his service dept add Bluetooth (please tell me this is possible as a non-factory ordered item and with a car that does not have nav). MSRP is $63,045. I have him down to $58,000 (I believe invoice is $57,700). Lease is going to be $790/month (that was my offer or walk), 15k miles per year with $5,000 due at inception (I know... don't put money down but I always have and will do so on this one), and they have to add Bluetooth. They seem very motivated to sell it as summer is coming to an end, and it is a very lightly used demo (1,800 miles). Good deal???
#146 of 204 Re: 2006 M3 Convertible. Good Deal? [brodsky]
Sep 05, 2006 (4:30 am)
I was just in VOB BMW in Rockville, Maryland. They have a brand new red M3 convertible on their showroom floor. I wasn't interested, but when I commented that it looked nice, the sales manager said "we can make you a great deal", which I interpreted to be invoice or less.
I would think you could do better on a used/demo M3, with 1,800 miles on it. At least in our area, September/October marks the end of convertible selling season and you are buying the tail end of the current M3 model. Not to mention that proper break in is extremely important with M3's. How many test drives were accumulated in those 1,800 miles? If it were me, I'd write them a check for $53,500 and dare them to rip it up. Last September, I did something similar on a 2005 911S Cab. I got $10k off on a brand new car, newly intorduced model, that just happened to be a late arriving 2005 instead of an identical $2,400 more expensive 2006. The fact that several local dealers told me the most they had ever discounted the 911 was $1,000 didn't dissuade me from trying - and it worked.
#147 of 204 Re: 2006 M3 Convertible. Good Deal? [habitat1]
Sep 09, 2006 (4:21 pm)
What does "proper break in" on an M3 entail?
#148 of 204 Re: 2006 M3 Convertible. Good Deal? [brodsky]
Sep 10, 2006 (4:39 am)
"What does "proper break in" on an M3 entail?"
Pretty much the same thing that is required/recommended on my Porsche 911 or former Honda S2000. Namely, don't exceed certain RPM's (4,200 in the case of the 911, with a 7,200 rpm redline), don't drive the car for short distances that doesn't give the engine oil time to fully heat up and the seals, gaskets and other engine parts time to fully expand and then contract (i.e. should be driven 15-20 minutes), avoid hard accelertion when the engine isn't warm (and still keep within aforementioned rpms), don't use cruise control and vary engine speeds on highway trips, etc.
The average Lexus, Toyota and GM engine doesn't require much care during break in. But high performance engines like the M3 do. And that has always been a concern of mine when I have considered used cars or worse, demos. I just have difficulty trusting that a car like the M3 has been test driven in a way that conforms to the above recommendations. When I was shopping for a Honda S2000 several years ago, a stupid salesperson threw me the keys to a brand new car and said 'let it rip". The S2000 is NOT supposed to be V-teched (exceeding 5,500 rpm) during break in and the long term performance of the car is noticably affected if it has been. So even "new" S2000's with 40-50+ miles on the odometer became off-limits for me.
If the M3 you are considering was actually the personal car of the dealer, I would ask him to give you written assurance that the car was properly broken in. If I'm not mistaken, there is even a way on the M3 to download info from the engine computers as to the maximum RPM's the engine has been run at and for how long. Ask him to give you that report. My local BMW dealer refused to replace a blown engine under warranty on an M3 that had been abused during break in.
Bottom line, I would not buy this car - or any "used" performance car - at a price that wasn't substantially below what I could get a new one for. I'd rather sleep at night knowing I properly broke the car in than wondering. Since you'd be leasing, maybe it's not as big a deal for you.
#149 of 204 Re: New stats on the 2007 M3 [emorexls]
Sep 11, 2006 (5:03 pm)
There's no "competition or sports package" equivalent in the list of options you've posted. Hopefully this will be the case; that the new M3 will come basically in one optimal flavor. It would mean minimal choices to agonize over. It's bad enough I'll have to choose between a 7-speed SMG-III and 6-speed manual tranny. I'll also have a tough time deciding on the Navigation system. Not to mention of course, the agony of dishing out the big dollars. Regarding the Rear Spoiler Deletion..what spoiler are they talking about?? Haven't seen a spoiler on any of the spyshots.
It would be nice if someone could update us with the latest news.
San Diego I
Major Standard Equipment
Adaptive Xenon Headlights
Carbon Fiber Roof
SMG III 7-Speed transmission with DRIVELOGIC
18" M Double Spoke Alloy Wheel
18x8F/18x9R with P235/45ZR18 Front, P265/40ZR18 Rear Performance tires.
Base Price USA Port of Entry* $53,975
Vehicle Options List
Metallic paint $475
Nappa leather $1,450
Carbon fiber trim $300
Aluminum trim NC
Comfort Access $500
M Multifunction Seats with Active Width Adjustment $1,900
Front Heated Seats $500 / ZCW
Power Rear Sunshade $350
Head-Up Display $1,000
Navigation System w/I-Drive $2,100
Power Rear Sunshade $350
Rear Park Distance Control $350
19" M Double Spoke alloy wheel $1,750
19x8.5F/19x9.5R with P235/40ZR19 Front, P265/35ZR19 Rear Performance tires.
Logic 7 sound system $1,200
SIRIUS Satellite Radio $595
High Definition Radio $500
Premium Package (ZPP) $3,100
Cold Weather Package (ZCW) $750
6-speed manual transmission NC
Rear Spoiler Deletion NC