Last post on Dec 14, 2011 at 6:31 AM
You are in the Toyota Corolla
What is this discussion about?
Toyota Corolla, Sedan
#2079 of 3103 Re: It makes sense to buy Toyota Corolla [moparbad]
Jan 12, 2008 (11:22 am)
Well, if the weight gain yields benefits in structrual rigidity - which according several reviews, it has, then I think it an acceptable gain given that the new Corolla is still one of the lighter vehicles in its class. I'd like to see the Corolla acheive a "Good" rating for structural integrity in the IIHS side impact (and obviously a "Good" overall mark in that test). Very few of the Corolla's peers have acheived a "Good" for structure.
backy - I understand many of your points, but I still think you're focusing on raw feature count vs. execution. Sure, the Elantra has rear disc brakes. But if the Corolla with drums can stop shorter, what do the rear disc brakes matter? It's fantastic that VSC is standard on the Elantra's upper trim lines, so I get that. But we don't know how many Corollas will actually be built with VSC, so its hard to say which vehicle will actually lead in terms of % produced with this feature. And, it's still not offered on some primary competitors, like the new for 2006 Civic or the new for 2007 Sentra.
I also think its an erroneous assumption that the Corolla's engine is the most advanced in the class simply because it's labeled 'all-new". Perhaps if it had direct injection or something, but engines like the one in Honda's Civic are just as advanced. The bottom line is that the new engine offers 6% more power than previously and improves fuel economy in a vehicle that is heavier and roomier than previously. I don't find anything wrong with that.
And, one thing that the Corolla offers moreso than several competitors is choice. There's more trim lines, more available features, and more powertrain combinations. I don't think thats a bad thing either.
Overall, I think its erroneous to dismiss the Corolla simply because it doesn't "redefine" the segment, which it seems is where you set your expectation. Especially with none of us having driven it...
#2080 of 3103 Re: It makes sense to buy Toyota Corolla [alpha01]
Jan 12, 2008 (11:28 am)
VSC has been extremely difficult or impossible to get in many regions of the US even on the Toyota Camry (unless you get a fully loaded $30K+ XLE V6), so that hints at what availability will be in the lower cost Corolla.
#2081 of 3103 Re: It makes sense to buy Toyota Corolla [jaxs1]
Jan 12, 2008 (11:42 am)
That may unfortunately be the case in some regions, and for those reasons Toyota is potentially alienting certain customers. In my region, though, I can configure - using Toyota's Build Your Own feature - all trims of non-hybrid Camrys with VSC, with the exception of the Standard 5A and Standard 5M (LE 5M is not currently available in this region).
#2082 of 3103 It makes sense to buy Toyota Corolla [moparbad]
Jan 12, 2008 (11:58 am)
I believe you are talking for new Mazda2 and 6 in Europe, not USA right?
It is impressive what Mazda has done with these models; however, both of cars are in completely different car segments than Toyota Corolla.
Mazda 2 is a Toyota Yaris competitor, and Mazda 6 is Toyota Avensis competitor.
If you compare Mazda 2 (1.5l) engine and Yaris (1.5l) engine from USA you will see that both cars have the same fuel economy of 5.9l/100km. Dimensions are about the same with Yaris taller and Mazda 2 longer.
Toyota Yaris - L/H/W - 3750/1530/1695 Mazda2 - L/H/W - 3895/1475/1695.
If you compare 1.4l diesel engines of both cars, Mazda 2 has smaller advantage 4.3l/100km compared to 4.5l/100km for Yaris.
It is a fact that Mazda 2 became car of the year in Japan and many European countries.
On the other hand, new Mazda 6 has 1.8l engine with 120hp. It is impressive that last gen. Mazda 6 used the same engine; however, fuel economy was worst.
Statistics: 1.8l engine/120hp - previous gen (7.7l/100km) New gen. (6.8-7l/100km)
It is very impressive because they went from 30.7MPG (prev. gen.) to 34.7MPG (new gen.)
Good find moparbad!
#2083 of 3103 Re: It makes sense to buy Toyota Corolla [alpha01]
Jan 12, 2008 (12:25 pm)
I check the build your own Toyota site for my region periodically and I think they may build cars with certain options in batches. Most of the time, you can only configure the fully-loaded XLEV6 and Hybrids with VSC, but a couple times VSC came up as included in one of the 2 option packages available on 4 cylinder XLE sedans in my region.
I've never seen it on LEs and 90% of the time only the XLEV6 and Hybrids had VSC included in the region's available option packages.
The brochure and main Toyota website lists VSC as an option for all Camrys, but VSC really will not be made available for all Camry trims in all regions.
Most likely, this will also be the case for the 2009 Corolla.
Unfortunately, unlike a Dodge or Ford, you cannot go through the options list and have them build a single vehicle for you with the options you want. You have to take what your region gets. For example, many buyers may want to buy a Camry LE 4 cylinder with VSC and JBL stereo. Those options are listed as being available options choices for the LE on the Toyota website, but you still can't get it because they don't build them.
#2084 of 3103 Re: It makes sense to buy Toyota Corolla [alpha01]
Jan 12, 2008 (12:35 pm)
Very quick and dirty.. In 'our' region it appears that VSC is an option on about 25% of the new builds. It's standard on some models so it wouldn't show up as a searchable option.
As regards the 'all-new' nomenclature it's true in that this family is the newest of the small I4s having dual VVT-i. This family is the 'ZR' family as opposed to the 'ZZ' family which was in the outgoing Corolla. Here is Wikipedia's listing of Toyota engines click on ZR.
If the market acceptance of the GR ( V6 ) engines and the UR ( 5.7L V8 ) are any indication this new family of I4s, the ZR's, should be very favorable... as indicated by the reviews from overseas.
One other characteristic of Toyota that is frustrating to many within and without is that Toyota often advances by baby steps, rarely by giant leaps. The GR family of V6s was a HUGE step for them. The Prius and HSD obviously. But listening to all the chatter about how the with the T100 and Tundra1 it took Toyota 10+ years to build a 'real truck' sounds a lot like these commentaries.
There are other technologies available to be added to these engines and drivetrains such as Valvematic. We should get them as another step forward at some time soon. Shooting all the ammunition in the first volley leaves nothing left. I do think that they 'hold back' on a lot of capabilities.
#2085 of 3103 Re: It makes sense to buy Toyota Corolla [alpha01]
Jan 12, 2008 (1:17 pm)
It's hard not to focus on features right now, until the Corolla is available to drive.
Rear disc brakes help reduce brake fade, don't they? Also don't discs grip better when wet?
ESC is standard on the top-end Civic, just like it's standard on the top-end Corolla. Mazda3 offers ESC; others like Nissan are lagging however. I think it would have been a good step (marketing wise and safety wise) for Toyota to start moving towards greater availability of ESC/VSC with the 2009 Corolla, since it will be mandated within a couple of years anyway. It should certainly be standard on the Camry by now. (Is it even standard on the Avalon?) But that's another story, and discussion.
As for the "choice" offered by Toyota, some is real choice e.g. the optional 2.4L engine (albeit some competitors like Hoinda, Mazda, and Nissan offer multipe engines in this class also, with more power than the old 2.4L unit) and nav; some is illusiionary, i.e. having a separate trim line to get power windows rather than just making them an option, or even standard. Choice is good when it's a significant choice. I find Toyota's plethora of trims on the new Corolla more confusing than helpful. Why not just one base trim line (call it CE or LE or whatever), with a good dollop of standard equipment and some options like leather and nav, S (sporty but with the 1.8L engine), and XRS (with the bigger engine)? If they really need a strippo model for loss leader purposes or for those 12 people (or so) who must have a strippo car no matter what, they could have an option package for the base trim that easily adds the equipment most people want, e.g. power package, cruise, remote locking.
Maybe it was expecting too much of Toyota (but "erroneous"? How can a wish be erroneous?) to hope that the 2009 Corolla would set a new standard in this segment. My thought was, the Toyota I once knew has the smarts and the resources to create a Corolla like that. They took six years to bring out the new version of the car that worldwide is their flagship. It's a very competitive segment, with the likes of Honda, Hyundai, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Subaru, and VW working hard to bring us great choices. Toyota must realize, I figured, their reputation will get them only so far in the midst of that kind of competition. But instead we got a car that seems to be very competent, matches most competitors in many areas, but paves no new ground that I can see. And it's this car that will have to do for the next six years or so--through the next-gen Mazda3 and Civic, which truly are the benchmarks of this class, even through the next-gen Elantra, which should worry Toyota a bit given the huge strides Hyundai has made in the past decade.
Maybe I'll feel differently after I drive the new Corolla. Based on test drive reports I've read, I'm not real hopeful about that, but who knows?
#2086 of 3103 Re: Major Yawn (disappointment) [jacksan1]
Jan 13, 2008 (4:39 am)
I'm a balding 50 something engineer with kids in college, so I hardly consider myself an "enthusiast". I drive 2 - 3,000 miles per month, mostly rural, so high reliability, low cost of ownership, and a good dealership are my priorities.
I live in s small town, with the office located in a city with only one dealership each for Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Nissan, Hyundai, VW, etc. Those dealers for Mazda, Nissan, and Hyundai are so bad, I can't buy from them. And the Honda dealer isn't competitive, so I'd travel an hour to buy.
I'm sure Toyota knows the Corolla market better than me, but I'd like to give "the masses" some credit for knowing real innovation (like better handling, mileage, performance) from silly little features (like accessory jacks, navigation, fancy wheels) that get most of the marketing hype.
#2087 of 3103 Re: Major Yawn (disappointment) [mcmanus]
by kirstie_h HOST
Jan 16, 2008 (9:46 am)
So, as a balding engineer, I'm guessing the sunroof is not an option you covet
And yeah, not every car needs to be built for the enthusiast. Some of us are looking primarily for a vehicle that starts & stops on command, can handle a beating mileage-wise, and doesn't mind running on a near-empty tank for a few extra miles.
Jan 16, 2008 (3:20 pm)
A few "nicities" on a car in this segment would be great, but most of us just want a reliable car that gets impressive mileage with low cost to own over multiple years. With basic maintenance, I just need my cars to start every time with no drama. A good a/c system with tunes and maybe some nice sneakers...that's what I want.
Sure I love all cars, but life is to busy with everything else that the car is the last thing I want or need to deal with! That's why the Civic, Corolla, 3 or whatever in this group are all we need...or really want.