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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

1439 messages,  Last post on Oct 15, 2009 at 2:25 PM

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What is this discussion about? Toyota Sienna, Honda Odyssey, Ford Freestar, Mercury Monterey, Tires, Wheels, Van

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#51 of 1439 Re: 10% estimated extra cost of PAX? [steve_] by heywood1 Dec 14, 2004 (2:34 pm)
Replying to: steve_ (Dec 14, 2004 11:11 am) Depends on what 'traditional non-run-flat' you're comparing it to. This claim is too general to be taken at face value. If anything, I would assume the comparison is to full-blown retail price of an expensive brand. The devil is in the details....
#52 of 1439 Re: PAX [gkkim] by impact01 Dec 14, 2004 (6:17 pm)
Replying to: gkkim (Dec 14, 2004 10:31 am) You write: "Honda probably choose PAX to distinguish itself from the usual RFT that have stiff side walls, which increases the harshness of the ride and reduces rolling resistance and reduces fuel economy."   The point brought out repeatedly is that Honda Touring didn't need PAX tires because it has enough space for a spare. Probably it would've been a bit more expensive to implement a TPMS without PAX, but IMO, Honda should've gone that route.   Secondly, Michelin itself could have designed PAX for a standard size rim. They wanted to fleece customers for their life time, so they went with a nonstandard rim.   You also write: "The point that I was making is that (whether the PAX tires are successful), people can change out the PAX if they do no like the ride/wear/noise."   As far as I am concerned, the issues of changing out PAX tires appear to be far more complicated than necessary at the present time. Being the bleeding edge of tire technology, I would avoid PAX like a plague. Conventional wisdom based on current vehicle numbers indicates PAX has a long shot at success, but if Michelin can pull it off, more power to them. However, I for one wouldn't want to be a guinea-pig in their little experiment.
#53 of 1439 I am now driving my NEW 2005 Sienna XLE Limited by digiprod Dec 17, 2004 (11:09 am)
I am so happy I did NOT go through with the purchase of the Odyssey Touring. The 2005 Sienna XLE Limited is a great van and even has some features the Odyssey lacked. My Toyota dealer matched my deal and I actually got a few extras at same price.   The reason I cancelled my deal at Honda was strickly PAX tires. It amazes me that so many people get all this wrong regarding these tires. My livihood is Engineering and technology. I have no problem with the technology. I actually thing "flat-runs" are a good thing. But not the greatest thing! I have BIG problems with the practical and business side of this issue.   First, you can NOT readily switch PAX tires off Ody Touring, no matter what you say! The rims or should I say "TWHEEL" is 18.1 inches a non standard size. There is NO donut available, no room to carry a future donut or any spare tire. Honda "wasted" the space where the donut would have been stored with a stupid placed useless "plastic" pocket! (EWL has a donut here).   The TPMS will not allow you to simply change to ANY other tire/wheel without NON-HONDA "yet to be proved" methods voiding your warranty! Smaller wheels will most definately screw up your mileage, speedometer readings. JUST READ THE USER MANUAL. ASK THE HONDA SERVICE MANAGER. I DID. YOU ARE BASICALLY STUCK WITH PAX TIRES!   Only Honda and Michelin have PAX and WILL "control" your price and availability for these "TWHEELS". That known, you will pay premium for replacement. I could care less how long they last. "CONTROL" is the real important word here, not "distinguish"!   Now for the important part. The Ody Touring is called "TOURING" it has high end GPS NAV, RES DVD, and all the things people want when they TRAVEL. This is NOT only a vehicle to go back and forth to work or shop in the neighborhood.   Availability of something as simple as TIRES on a road trip is paramount to any thinking driver. Not having ANY PAX tires in Canada at all, or in most remote places is ridiculous. HELL, my New Jersey dealer has NONE in stock and it is a large dealer!   I do not care what Honda and Michelin does to "ship" a tire to me when I am STUCK in front of a tire repair shop with NO replacement! AAA can NOT help and neither can 99.999% of the tire repair centers. Waiting for a replacement M-F 9-5, from only one source is stupid! Especially when you are on a weekend away.   Who cares that Rolls Royce uses them, as RR owners are NOT travelling to National Parks using a NAV with KIDS in the back playing Playstation! How can you EVEN think to compare RR to HONDA? Or Panther? Give us a break, the space shuttle has great technology also, should I buy into that for family van?   Watch how fast Honda drops PAX as a standard item! Then you will have THAT ONE, that people will avoid!   I want to thank the Edmunds forum for "informing me" when Honda dealer, salesman, Honda web site, Honda brochure, Honda news releases, and even Road and Track did NOT tell me the whole story.   If PAX was so great, why does Honda hide the facts from its customers? Why is PAX NOT on every car they sell? Why is it NOT on all cars? At least Toyota run flats can be swapped easily and the Toyota dealer TOLD me the AWD had NO spare! I opted for FWD. I would NOT be surprised if Honda has a class action law suite against them one day on this and has to make good on all those PAX tires on Touring ODYs.   By the way, the rear seats in the Honda. The mechanism for folding them is cheap, the plastic lever broke right off in my girlfriends hand at the dealers. We then noticed the one on the other side was already broken! NOT made all that well, I am surprised at Honda, as they make a great vehicle otherwise. Just one other thing to check, when looking at the Honda Ody. Bet that will change also in 2006.   I am very happy with my choice, 2005 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited is a great minivan! Enough with the performance issues/Gas mileage as the Honda Ody and Toyota Sienna are so close anyway. These are minivans, NOT Corvettes! Having a easy replace tire is a bit more important, NO?   Stephen A Replies to this message: gkkim (Dec 17, 2004 11:39 am) isellhondas (Dec 17, 2004 11:45 am) cccompson (Dec 17, 2004 3:33 pm) digiprod (Dec 18, 2004 7:31 am) and 1 more...
#54 of 1439 by steve_ HOST Dec 17, 2004 (11:23 am)
Michelin has licensed the technology to four other tire companies since they introduced PAX in 1998 (Goodyear, Pirelli, Toyo and Sumitomo). I think the extra cost is the main deterrent to wide adoption - the requirement for tire pressure monitors that the US government is phasing in will encourage use of run-flats.   (Detroit Free Press)   Steve, Host Replies to this message: isellhondas (Dec 17, 2004 11:46 am)
#55 of 1439 Re: I am now driving my NEW 2005 Sienna XLE Limited [digiprod] by gkkim Dec 17, 2004 (11:39 am)
Replying to: digiprod (Dec 17, 2004 11:09 am) Good for you Digiprod. I'm glad you made your decision with your wallet. Just like you, many of us Odyssey Touring owners have deliberated those pro/con and have decided that the value added in the Touring is worthwhile for us, just as you chosen to be able to easily replace tires as a bit more important. Can PAX be changed out? Yeah. Is it difficult? Probably not as easy as finding a bridgestone rft for the sienna. Is is pax a standard wheel/tread/bead. Nope. Will it be part of the evolution or part of an extinction branch - we'll see. Between radial tires, vhs/beta, cd/dvd, hdtv standards, we've witness progress not seen in previous generations. We'll see where these treads lead us.
#56 of 1439 Re: I am now driving my NEW 2005 Sienna XLE Limited [digiprod] by isellhondas Dec 17, 2004 (11:45 am)
Replying to: digiprod (Dec 17, 2004 11:09 am) Wow...how do you REALLY feel?   I hope Honda monitors these forums. I think your views are WAY extreme but it's entirely possible amny others feel the same way.   As far as the seat levers breaking. I have never seen this. The third row seats must have been raised and lowered THOUSANDS of times by abusive people at our recent Auto Show and after a week of that, they weren't broken. Replies to this message: cccompson (Dec 17, 2004 3:33 pm) digiprod (Dec 18, 2004 7:31 am) indy93 (Dec 18, 2004 11:45 pm)
#57 of 1439 Re: [steve_] by isellhondas Dec 17, 2004 (11:46 am)
Replying to: steve_ (Dec 17, 2004 11:23 am) Thanks for that info. I didn't know that. Kinda takes a lot of the wind out of that previous post.   I guess time will tell...
#58 of 1439 by steve_ HOST Dec 17, 2004 (11:56 am)
Well, as someone who averages a flat a year, I do like the idea of a full size spare. Both my Quest and Outback came with donuts, and both were replaced with full size spares. I like to drive roads like this one though. When I had my flat there, the muddy road was so rough I didn't realize I had a flat for a mile. Never did find the hubcap   Oh yeah, I got a spare 50 miles down the road at the one gas station in Churchill Falls - and it was sort of close to the size I needed, lol.   Steve, Host
#59 of 1439 Well, I sit here... by isellhondas Dec 17, 2004 (12:15 pm)
And wonder what all of the flat tire talk is about. I'll guess it's been 20 years since I've had a flat and then it was a slow leaker.   Maybe I'm just lucky?
#60 of 1439 I can see both sides of the issue by jaserb Dec 17, 2004 (2:29 pm)
Honda is looking for differentiators - features that will give customers a reason to buy their van over someone else's. Michelin is trying to push a new "state of the art" tire standard it invented, in the hopes it will become popular and will provide a ton of new sales and licensing revenue.   On the other hand, all I can think of is "TRX". That was supposed to be the "next big thing" in tire technology, too, but all it did was ensure strong demand for aftermarket wheels. Unless I really thought PAX was going to be on EVERY car in 10 years, I'd stick with regular radials. Isell, you yourself said that you rarely if ever get flats. Doesn't PAX seem like a super expensive and complex solution to a fairly simple problem? This isn't like the bias-ply to radial changeover, where one technology offered vastly superior performance with no real cost or other drawbacks.   One final thought. When I was a kid, our transmission crapped out on I-10 just on the AZ side of the AZ-CA border. We spent the next week of our vacation in Blythe, CA instead of Disneyland. Imagine spending a week of vacation in Blythe just so you can get a spare tire shipped in to the local tire shop - assuming they even have the necessary mounting tools! I think there are going to be some super unhappy Odyssey Touring customers when something like this happens.   -Jason

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