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Vans & Minivans Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans
1439 messages, Last post on Oct 15, 2009 at 2:25 PM
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Replying to: cucrew (Feb 20, 2009 11:33 am)
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http://www.sfmslaw.com/user_documents/honda-settlement-agreement-090126.pdf $3 million for the plaintiffs lawyers. Pro rata 3/36 warranty for Pax replacements and $110 rebate for a compact spare. $300 rebate for a new Honda or Acura. Nothing if you dePax. Translation: For $3 million "our" lawyers obtained for the class trivial compensation in the form of a pro rata replacement warranty for tread wear, which is standard for most passenger tires anyway. However, this only applies to purchase of new Pax tires. And we get a whopping $300 off if we give Honda another $30-40,000 for a new car. So even the trivial benefit is only available if we keep forking over money to Honda and Michelin. If you dePax to be rid of this situation, you get nothing. Again, I urge everyone to opt out of the settlement, file a complaint w BBB and then file in your local small claims court. This is Honda/Michelin's worst nightmare since they don't want to have to defend hundreds of small claims on the same issue. May end up with nothing, but if you dePax that's what you're getting anyway.
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Replying to: skap2 (Mar 01, 2009 10:36 am) |
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Replying to: skap2 (Mar 01, 2009 10:36 am) Thanks! Wade De-paxed 6 months ago...
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Replying to: smlycat (Mar 02, 2009 12:55 pm) Basic claim against Honda and Michelin is failure to disclose material issues before sale of each Odyssey, in this case the atypical cost for PAX tires when combined with abnormally low average tread life. Given replacement cost of $300/tire installed, and average tread wear of 25K miles, that means approx. $500 annualized cost just to own PAX system. If average tires cost $100/tire and last 40K miles, that is a difference of almost $400 annualized cost per year. This is all rough averages. The linchpin will be each state's consumer protection statute. In simple terms, these generally penalize business conduct that is deceitful or dishonest. In this case Honda and Michelin had a duty to know and disclose to Odyssey purchasers the exorbitant recurring expense of owning the PAX system. Some consumer protection statutes are very broad and provide for statutory damages even without proving actual damages. Others are more restrictive and require plaintiffs to prove how they suffered damages and the exact amount. Damages for depax consist of having to buy new wheels as well as tires. That's not something any of us expected 2-3 years into ownership of a brand new car. Honda/Michelin will say eventually all new tires have to be replaced, 25K may be low but not unreasonable, and that buying new wheels is our choice. Since small claims almost never allows discovery, we cannot get access to the documents that would prove H/M knew the truth and concealed it. However, there is enough on the web to give a small claims judge to prove there is a widespread problem -- Exhibit A is the class action complaint and settlement. One advantage, oddly enough, is that each claim is fairly small. I plan to file for only about $700, which is cost of my replacement wheels and pro rata cost for new tires, since we did get 25K miles on our Pax. H/M may very well start to settle individual claims, since it costs them at least $700 just to have lawyers or corp officers go to small claims court in each town and city, spend 3 hours waiting and participating in mediation (which is usually mandatory before small claims trials), and their only defense is "we did nothing wrong, so PAX are a little pricey, just ignore everything the plaintiff says." Even without a smoking gun, most judges will ask H/M if there is or is not a problem w PAX, and what did they disclose about cost before purchase. So you do need to be prepared to argue your case. Bottom line, small claims is informal and unpredictable. Judges just want to hear a simple story of how and why you were wronged. If you're prepared, there's at least a shot winning since the average judge knows that no one expects to have to spend $1,000 every 2 years to replace tires. If the judge is pro-business/ anti-consumer, they won't care.
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As the owner of four Honda Odysseys since 2001, I think the Odyssey is the best family-hauler on the planet. I've gotten several friends and family members to buy in too. However, when the PAX tires on my '07 wear out, I won't be trading for another Odyssey. Period. Honda violated a personal trust with me and I will never buy another Ody. I understand that Honda didn't really have a choice about whether or not to litigate--the shysters make it impossible for them to do otherwise. Honda lost the court battle but we consumers still got nothing. If Honda wanted to keep a loyal customer like me, all they needed to do was say: "We may not have given you all the information you deserved when you bought our product. To make it up to you, we will install one free replacement set of PAX tires or we will de-PAX your vehicle at our expense--your choice." Had they done so, I might have bought another Ody next year (or perhaps a Pilot). Now, I absolutely will not buy another Ody and will buy an American product instead. Oh yeah, my next tires will be Goodyear (or at least somebody other than Michelin). |
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Ok, I got my new Odyssey touring with PAX last week. I had absolutely no idea of problems related to PAX when I purchased it. So what do I do now? I am thinking to ask dealer to dePAX my Odyssey at their expense. Has anyone done this? Will this be even possible??? If not, what do you guys recommend? |
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Replying to: thelinux (Mar 18, 2009 8:32 am) If you decide to de-PAX yourself, you have lots of options that range from new Honda wheels and GFT rubber through a complete aftermarket set. Keep us posted on how you make out. Best regards, Shipo |
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Replying to: thelinux (Mar 18, 2009 8:32 am) 1) The tires don't last as long as regular tires (35k miles max); 2) They cost three times as much to replace (it used to be much more than that); 3) When you need a replacement tire, it may be difficult to find a qualified service center with the right equipment; and 4) If you can find a PAX service center, the chances that it has the required parts in stock are pretty slim. Some complain about dimished ride quality and handling, but I figure that you should have noticed that when you test drove the vehicle. When I bought my 2006 Touring, the dealer told me that all Honda dealers would have the special PAX equipment and that the replacement cost differential would be 10-15%. He didn't mention poor tread life and actually praised Michelin for its famous durability. At the time, I lived in Tucson and my wife and kids made many trips up to Phoenix to visit family while I was at work. The safety and security of tires that could be driven--even flat--all the way there offset the increased cost. What they didn't tell us was that if the van got a flat, my wife and kids might make it to Phoenix, but the van would probably be stuck there for days while one of the very few qualified dealers waited for one of the ridiculously over-priced tires to be shipped from the warehouse. At that time, a set of four PAX and the required additional parts would cost about $2400 installed. Forget about driving cross-country in early 2006 because it was as much as 500 miles between qualified PAX service centers (and PAX Tourings didn't come with spare tires)! When I traded my 2006 Touring for a 2007, I was fully aware of the PAX issues and I had moved to VA where there are more PAX dealers. I traded the 06 with only 35K miles on it because I wasn't willing to pay the $1600 quoted to replace the tires. I could have bought another brand, but we loved the Ody and the PAX-free Touring wasn't available yet. At least this time I knew what I was getting and made a conscious decision to trade off increased cost/less convenience for improved safety. Honda owed us all that information up front and they should not have promised a support network that they could not deliver. When the tread life issues surfaced, they should have simply offered free replacements instead of excuses.
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Replying to: edwardtinsley (Feb 23, 2009 5:12 am)
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