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#549 of 588 Re: I think thats wrong.. [kyfdx]
Apr 11, 2007 (8:27 am)
" ... Unlike ABS, it doesn't require the driver to act any differently than in a vehicle that isn't equipped that way.. "
kyfdx, Sorry but this isn't true. I've supported ESC
since the start, goes back aways, but the fact is that most
people overcorrect in a skid and if you are good and quick
you can get out of a modest skid that way. If you do that
with ESC you are going to end up hitting what you wanted to
miss. The key to ESC is to steer where you want to end up,
if the eyes find the "exit" then the hands will take the
steering wheel there and you escape. Problem is that in a
panic, most people stare at the tree or wall or other car
in a spin and sure enough that's where they go with ESC.
There are plenty of forum discussions about Vette drivers
that tried the old approach and then complained that ESC
didn't work after the crash. Most after having been told
what they should have done have agreed that if they had
known that they would have done it differently.
BTW, I've got four years on race tracks trying to "Not" have
the ESC engage, and I haven't always been successful. In
addition I worked for one of the major gyro suppliers for
over a decade and got lots of briefings about how the system
has changed from the first intro in the early 90's by MB and
the '97 Caddy, '98 Vette introduction. The reason I got a
2002 Corvette, amazing system.
#550 of 588 Re: bring it / it pays for itself if it saves you just once [Mr_Shiftright]
Apr 11, 2007 (8:36 am)
Shifty, if you want to see the system work and how to avoid
it, feel free to look up the Blue Vette at Sears Point, May
5/6 NASA event. With a helmet you are welcome to ride, as
long as you sign the NASA waiver.
The system engages when the driver is not smooth,
objective be smooth. However, I have two cases in about
80+ days on track where I was glad that the system took
over, once at Sears Point doing about 100mph through turn 1.
I'm a believer! Problem with wholly depending on human
skill is that no matter how seldom it happens, bad things
do happen, the system is pretty nice to have at those times.
#551 of 588 Re: I think thats wrong.. [starrow68]
Apr 11, 2007 (8:39 am)
thank you for your post. and you are commenting on educated drivers who have been briefed on proper operation of the system and how to have it aid them (or rather how not to have their actions collide with the automation).
the general public will not be so well trained and knowlegeable. just as has been with ABS, people were trained to pump their brakes rather than stand on them. so with ABS, they will often not benefit by the technology.
interesting to me, i've read a report, anecdotal of course on the forums here of a van driver having ESC activate because of a failed sensor (yaw or stearing angle? i don't know) and ending up IN THE ONCOMMING LANE of traffic. I presume the manufacturer may need to work on the yaw sensor and steering angle sensor validation, but I don't know.
could you theorize on how a failed sensor ended up modulating the brake for 1 tire, and putting someone into harms way?
another few anecdotes a year or so back on people entering corners at a good rate of speed to have their engine output de-rated, i believe by ESC.
these are two reasons i'd like to be a late adopter of the technology. besides increased complexity and cost to diagnose and fix, i'm also concerned about the steering inputs colliding with the ESC programming.
#552 of 588 Re: I think thats wrong.. [starrow68]
by kyfdx@Edmunds HOST
Apr 11, 2007 (8:40 am)
I think in the majority of cases with ESC, the skid never happens....
The ESC is activated, but the car never leaves the driver's intended path, so no correction necessary...
If you get into a skid with ESC, I agree... I'm not counting on the driver to do the right thing..
#553 of 588 Re: I think thats wrong.. [user777]
Apr 11, 2007 (8:53 am)
the general public will not be so well trained and knowlegeable.
The ESC studies have shown reductions in accidents and fatalities for this untrained, unknowledgeable, general public.
#554 of 588 Re: I think thats wrong.. [jeffyscott]
Apr 11, 2007 (3:18 pm)
i have not read the studies that support your claim. if you've got one that provides specifics w.r.t. how the reductions were estimated or projected (and i highly doubt actually counted) from a large statistically significant sample, please let us know.
#555 of 588 not to pick on...
Apr 11, 2007 (4:07 pm)
mr. waltrip, he has plenty of other troubles, but i am assuming the vehicle 'had' esc.
Michael Waltrip Charged After Vehicle Accident Saturday: UPDATE: Statement from Waltrip: #55-Michael Waltrip is charged with reckless driving and failure to report an accident after a crash on Molly's Backbone Road in Catawba County. The Highway Patrol says Waltrip was driving about 70 miles per hour in the 55 mile-per-hour zone when he went off the right side of the road in a curve around 1:50 a.m. Saturday. His car then traveled back across the pavement and off the left side of the roadway, sliding sideways and striking a utility pole as it overturned. The car then rolled over and came to a rest on its side. Troopers said a witness saw Waltrip crawl out of the vehicle and leave the scene. When a trooper went to his home around 2:30 a.m. no one was there, but when he went back at 8 a.m. he found Waltrip, who admitted he'd fallen asleep at the wheel. Waltrip, with scratches on his face and some deep cuts on his finger, spoke with Eyewitness News about the crash. He said he was on his way home to Sherill's Ford from Charlotte. "I was almost home. I relaxed a little bit and ran off the road," he explained. "I woke up with gravel hitting the car and I tried to correct but it was too late. The seasoned driver says he instinctively got out of his car, and then decided to walk home because he often runs the route and was only a mile away. Waltrip will be in court in Newton on May 14.(WSOCTV.com)(4-10-2007)
UPDATE: Michael Waltrip was uninjured in a single car accident Friday night near his home in Sherrills Ford, N.C. The 43-year old was returning from Charlotte, N.C. when he fell asleep at the wheel within a mile of his home and ran off the road, striking a telephone pole. “I am really embarrassed about the accident, but I feel fortunate that I wasn’t hurt,” said Waltrip. “For 25 years I have had a great driving record. I consider myself to be a courteous and safe driver on public roads. I never expected to fall asleep behind the wheel of a car.” The North Carolina Highway Patrol ticketed Waltrip for reckless driving (admitting to falling asleep at the wheel) and failure to notify authorities of an accident in a timely manner.(MWR PR)(4-10-2007)
#556 of 588 Re: not to pick on... [explorerx4]
by Stever@Edmunds HOST
Apr 11, 2007 (6:48 pm)
If it was a 2000 or newer Land Cruiser it should have stability control (and it looks pretty new from the photos around the net - pic link).
Here's the Autoblog story.
#557 of 588 Re: not to pick on... [explorerx4]
Apr 11, 2007 (7:10 pm)
Amazing he walked away...
I wouldn't call it a failure of ESC. If you fall asleep and the car's left the pavement when you wake up, there's not much hope. The main capability of ESC in preventing rollovers is in keeping the car on the pavement to begin with, mainly by helping prevent skids. Once it's left the pavement, it can "trip" on something, and roll over, even with ESC (although the newest systems are designed with rollover mitigation in addition to standard skid control).
#558 of 588 Re: I think thats wrong.. [user777]
Apr 11, 2007 (7:50 pm)
Interesting thing about suspect being a failed sensor. In
many cases I've heard about researched, the sensor was
operating properly, what other factors came into play is the
question. I remember once, folks are gone now, can't hurt
to tell on myself, but distracted while driving and rear
ended a parked car. Turned out to be a HS classmate, and he
thanked me, got a new car out of the deal. My story at the
time was I swung at a bee and hit the wheel, I was alergic
to bees so, plausible. Not that anyone ever omits any
details but it is possible they got confused ...
Back to the gyro, the one I was most familiar with had a
built in default mode along with software defaults where if
the inputs from gyro, steering and wheel speed sensors were
out of bounds, the system gave a shut off notice. That
leaves bad input that mimics normal driving, not real big
window there. The gyro default was that if it didn't have
self test data that passed the test it also did a self shut
off with notice. I am not aware of any cases where sensors
where found to be at fault.
The software for the full system is usually a car mfg. item
using various sensors and yes they look for low cost on the
sensors. Some but not all do pull back on engine power when
the system engages. Depends on what they are trying to
accomplish. If using the front brakes is the answer, using
engine braking shifts more weight forward than just using
one brake, being more effective. If however, the rear brake
is called for then keeping power down is better, some have
figured it out, Corvette being one.
Most sytems only have one gyro, BMW however, opted at least
for some time to go with redundant gyros and compare outputs.
Some gyros can co-exist with other gyros but there are some
that seem to give bad data when they get together, it is
pretty complicated for a finance type like me vs. what the
engineers can discuss. Last I heard there were four main
gyro producers with two having the Lion share of the market.
A German Gyro was in the high end MB, BMW, Porsche, etc.
while a US gyro was in lower end units of those same mfg's.
I'm about a year out of date on what is going on currently.