Last post on Sep 06, 2011 at 10:52 AM
You are in the Porsche 911
What is this discussion about?
Porsche, Coupe, Convertible
#68 of 237 964 - did they ever get it right?
Feb 14, 2005 (7:56 pm)
I've heard that the '964' edition of the 911 is undesirable compared to the '993'. Market pricing seems to bear that out, because low mileage 993's seem to be in the mid-$40Ks and up. But, I have a chance to buy a very mint '93 911/964 cabriolet C2 (5spd, 18,000 original miles) and - to be blunt - I think it's a gorgeous car, kind of the perfect blend of the old design with the first decent interior. Subjective, I know, but somehow it works for me.
I'm going to check it out this week, and will get a PPI at the local Porsche dealer before closing the deal.
Questions for this group:
Did Porsche get the flywheel and oil leak issues sorted out by the 1993 model year?
Ditto for the self-destructing distributor belts?
Are there other black marks against the 964 I should know about?
Looking for some guidance here. The car's not cheap, and I don't want to buy "the bad one" just 'cause it looks nearly perfect. I'm looking to use it as a weekend car, not a daily driver, here in San Diego.
#69 of 237 Re: 964 - did they ever get it right? [billymay]
Feb 14, 2005 (9:09 pm)
You hit me right where it hurts! I own a '93 -- now as to which car is better, you'll find as many different opinions as you will owners. The big charm of the 993 -- everyone will admit -- is cosmetics and horsepower; lots of folk prefer the slanted-back headlights of the 993, and of course it has 20-40 more horsepower, depending on the year. Obviously, I agree with your assessment on looks.
1) Flywheel and leaking seal were fixed by redesign for '92. That said, many (most?) Porsches have oil leaks -- the factory manual for the air-cooleds will suggest you should be able to lose a quart/liter every 1000 mi. or so and still be within norms. (Mine loses 1/3 qt. every 1500 miles.)But with over 14 quarts to work with, none of that is catastrophic.
2) The distributor vent kit likewise was added for '92. If it isn't on the car for some stupid reason, you can do it yourself for under $10. Changing out the belt so that you have a fresh one there is a good idea in a car that is over 10 years old, however, and that will be more expensive.
3) No other specific 964 problems. But all the air-cooleds need to be within precise valve adjustment specs so if it hasn't been tuned recently, I'd budget for that. About the time you get it up to 70-100k for mileage you will have to look at replacing valve guides, etc.
You don't say anything about paper. A car with 18000 miles should have every speck of paper with it. MIssing paper and/or maintenance records are worth a hefty deduction from value in most people's book.
You do mention going to the Porsche dealer for a PPI. The PPI is essential, of course, and I'm glad you're planning to do that ... but I urge you to not take it to a dealer. Dealer mechanics haven't had to work on air cooled machinery since 1999 and very many of them are clueless about diagnostic work. Instead, seek out a good independent Porsche mechanic (check with the local PCA members .... easily found on the national website) and let him tell you what you really have ... even if all the paper is there.
Though you don't mention options, etc., Bruce Anderson lists the present retail value of a 93 C2 Cab in Excellent condition (i.e., top notch, all paper, no mechanical work needed, etc.) at $36588. The extremely low mileage would allow for an additional 10%.
Let me offer a personal opinion. I'd be hesitant to buy a car with such low mileage. If it has been well-maintained, the problems with it should not be discouraging. But the depreciation would drive me nuts -- I mean at that low mileage you are probably paying a premium of around $5000 for the car. Unless it is going to be a garage queen, every time you drive it you're going to be flushing a lot more money than you need to. When I searched for mine two years ago, that was why I looked for a car with about 30000 miles. Now, I would be looking in the 40000 range.
Hope this helps. Be sure to keep us posted -- it'd be nice to have another air-cooled fan on site!
Best wishes, JW
#70 of 237 Great post, jwilson
Feb 14, 2005 (11:42 pm)
Thanks for this - sounds like '93 is the best of the 964s. Yeah, the engine sounds like an actual engine, and the wind tunnel hadn't eroded what was left of the original concept. I was never a fan of the earlier 'accordion'-style bumpers, either, so the 964's always looked nicely sculpted to me.
Good points about the paperwork and PPI. Yes, I had thought to get it done at a local dealer, because the car is out of town. The seller didn't mention that all the paperwork was available but, if the original owner was that obsessive about it, you would think it would be.
The mileage is kind of low. But it is documented. Question is whether the car sat for years at time without being run. That's usually bad news for seals and rubber parts.
Price: He's asking $44K, which is - um - optimistic. I can get a 2001 996 cabrio in the mid $40K's with low mileage -- not the same kind of car, but 8 years newer. If he's willing to drop down a bit, I could see it. I called about the car 2 weeks ago. It's near Denver, and frankly February isn't convertible season.
I'm OK with the distributor belt replacement, etc. If I didn't want to take care of the car I'd be over on the Lexus forum But I'll find out about the distributor kit. Unless I see paperwork for a valve adjustment, I'll assume it needs one.
I think all 911's leak, maybe the one thing the Germans learned from the British auto industry. I remember asking a mechanic about the chronic dripping from my ex-'76 MGB and he said sometimes they leaked in the showroom.
Anyway jwilson, thanks the advice!
Feb 15, 2005 (6:59 am)
I really wasn't disagreeing with you. Perhaps I have a different tolerance level as I am not into the track scene—yet. As this is my first Porsche, and having loved them for a real long time, I guess I am foraging for reasons to remain optimistic while enjoying what I have now. However, I will consider disagreeing with you more in the future… hey, I got another great missive out of you didn't I?
Have you been following the story of the guy who went to lemon arbitration against Porsche and to his surprise found out that they had a complete record of his track activities? Also, Porsche can apparently document the way a car is driven—missed downshifts, rev patterns etc—by way of on-board computers. Talk about torqueing off the track rats. This is getting interesting.
#72 of 237 Re: JW [designman]
Feb 15, 2005 (10:02 am)
And for my part I sure don't intend to discourage anyone! I still believe that, if you want a sports car, Porsche is the best there is ... any model, any year. Yeah, I'm over the top with the comment, but isn't that why we buy, and dote on, the marque we chase?
The guy with the arbitration issues is brand new to me! Link? I'm curious about it, because I know they've also been willing to replace engines and those $12k PCCB brakes for people with much track use. Otoh, I've heard that the computers do that sort of record-keeping, too.
OT: a friend of mine who is big on his Ferraris tells me that Ferrari's computers track usage also, but in their case the original owner (of, say, the Enzo) has had to sign a statement promising to drive the car the way it was "intended." He said Ferrari has indicated they have the right to take a car back if it is not driven hard enough! Don't know if that's ever been done, but I love the attitude.
#73 of 237 Re: [Mr_Shiftright]
Feb 15, 2005 (11:35 pm)
I'lll give them a call...and make an offer on the GTS. San Rafael is only across the Richmond bridge from me...probable closer than Redwood City from where I am.
I heard that the alignment was tricky and the tires had to settle in....
I'll keep you up to date...thanks
Feb 16, 2005 (7:11 am)
For the arbitration thread I mentioned, look for my post in the "What else do you drive" thread in which you recently posted. Posting the link here is against the rules and I'm not sure if we're allowed to mention the site. Would like to hear your response. Thanks.
Feb 16, 2005 (9:52 am)
I seriously doubt Ferrari would give anyone their money back willingly, but it's a nice story.
If your car is a GTS and it's in good shape, you could be getting a good deal. A GTS sells for considerably more than an S4.
Hi-Tec is a great shop for 911s and 928s. You couldn't be in better hands.
Feb 16, 2005 (12:21 pm)
Re: C7S (Porsche Boxster Coupe)
There's finally some decent rumor material making its way onto the internet. First of all, the artists' renditions of the coupe make it look stunning...reminds my vaguely of the new Ferrari 612 GT, but with a shorter wheelbase. What gets me about this car the most, really, is that it almost seems to muscle the 997 right out of the lineup....
First of all, rumor says the C7S is beating the 997 in lap times, although it will be priced about GBP 8,000 less than the 997. It would have a 300 hp engine, putting it squarely between the 987 S and the 997 in terms of HP, plus a low center of gravity and the mid engine. Brakes might be standard ceramic, wheels may be 19" standard. It would be pitched as a pure driver's car, whereas the 997 and 987 would be more GT-oriented. A lower-priced version with a lesser engine may follow. With a fixed roof, though, the car would be a good GT car, as well.
So why would someone buy a 997 over the coupe? Definately not performance. 19" wheels may make for a punishing ride. That's about all I can say in favor of a 997, according to this information. Backseat? How many people really care? Maybe the coupe will be more cramped and have a stiffer ride, or have less insulation. If the 997 does not have a noticable edge in terms of comfort and refinement (i.e., more GT-oriented), then the 997 is going to whither on the vine. It's almost as if Porsche is pushing the 997 out, slowly....
Any other thoughts?
#77 of 237 Re: C7S [speeds2much]
Feb 16, 2005 (6:33 pm)
"It's almost as if Porsche is pushing the 997 out, slowly...."
What an interesting concept! Boy, would that move ever make the you-know-what hit the rotating air-movement blades!
Your suggestion is, then, that the "C7S" would replace the 911 as we know it, and the "new" 911 would be limited to the GT3, the Turbo, GT2, etc.?
This assumes they're willing to kill of the cash cow they've got. Seems to me they're too profit-oriented for that move, but if the Boxster becomes popular enough .......... who knows?