Last post on Oct 24, 2013 at 5:25 PM
You are in the Porsche 911
What is this discussion about?
Porsche 911, Porsche Carrera GT, Coupe, Convertible
#148 of 2175 Re: 2005 911 vs. Boxster S vs. C6 Corvette Coupe [love2skicar1]
Aug 03, 2005 (8:00 pm)
Sorry to jump on, but it appears to me that YOU don't know what you are talking about in this instance and, rich or not, you would be foolish to come even close to paying $100k+ for a used 2004 C4S Cab.
First, there is nothing particularly "rare" about a 2004 C4S other than the number of buyers that wanted to buy one new. Porsche increased its production capacity with the 996 model and could have produced as many of its 911's in AWD format as the demand warranted. The fact is that most Porsche purists don't want an AWD 911, especially the 996 base model with only 320 horsepower. To claim the C4S is rare because of anything other than limited demand is simply incorrect.
Second, while it is true that some Porsche purists have bid up the price of late model air cooled 993's, there is no love affair with the 996. It's neither as "pure" as the 993, nor nearly as good as the new 997. I personally agree with S4to911, I would choose the 997 S Cab over the 996 Turbo Cab. I would trade off 0.5 seconds 0-60 for the upgraded interior, better handling and other refinements.
Third, if you really want a used 2004 C4S Cab, shop around. I believe the price for a pristine one with under 5,000 miles should be closer to $75,000 - $80,000. I was in DC earlier this year and saw one at Select Auto Imports for around that price. They are reputable, as one of my business partners has bought his last two cars from them.
Finally, don't kid yourself with the economics of buying a "rare" car.. You want to talk really rare?? I owned a 1979 BMW M1. BMW's Motorsport Group made a grand total of 455 of these over a 4 year period of time. I sold the mine in 1983 (we were moving out of the country) for $55,000. I put $50,000 of the sales price into an investment account subject to an agreement with my wife that it would be available for a future sports car purchase when we returned. That fund, as of yesterday's stock market close, is now worth exactly $2,134,557.80. That's a compounded annual return of 18.6%. I have purchased several sports cars in the interim 22 years out of other discretionary funds, but decided to keep the "sports car" fund intact as a lesson to our kids of the importance of saving and the value of compounding (not to mention a pretty good fund manager).
If you really like the 2004 C4S more than the 2005 997 S, that is certainly your perogative. But I do think you are being shnookered into thinking you are getting something that you are not, and potentially paying an extremely inflated price for it. I hope at least that you shop around a bit more.
#149 of 2175 Re: Comments Please [s4to911]
Aug 03, 2005 (9:31 pm)
Thanks so much.
I guess I have to tell my Salesperson to be aware of the fact that Late models 05 and 06 997 and 997 S have an MP3 capability
Again, Thanks for the info.
#150 of 2175 Re: 2005 911 vs. Boxster S vs. C6 Corvette Coupe [spiritinthesky]
Aug 03, 2005 (10:32 pm)
You are very confident anyone paying $100K for a C4S is foolish, so go ahead and do a simple search on ebay or autotrader and tell us what you find. If you can find a reasonably equipped C4S for $75-80K TODAY (vs. winter) with 4K miles, then I suggest you buy it and sell it the next day, because you'll do even better than you did in your investment account. The lowest I found on ebay or autotrader was $94K for a car with fewer options and more miles.
The reason for the discrepancy is that you have to take into account options (and mileage) when valuing a Porsche (and other cars like classic Corvettes) because they influence the supply demand equation. The car in question has ceramic brakes ($8K), navigation ($3K), full leather, carbon fiber interior, special wheels, sports exhaust ($1K), power memory seats, and 4K miles so that accounts for the higher price vs. more normally equipped, higher mileage version. A car with fewer options and just a few more thousand miles would be worth significantly less.
I give up..the only person who added to this question was the person who had driven them back to back. It's hard to find dealers with both models in stock at the same time so that information was helpful, so thank you.
Still waiting for the $75-80K C4S
#151 of 2175 Re: 2005 911 vs. Boxster S vs. C6 Corvette Coupe [love2skicar1]
Aug 04, 2005 (3:53 am)
I don't need to search autotrader or e-bay to find out what the "asking" prices are on a used C4S. Rather, I suggest you call some reputable Porsche dealerships and ask them to tell you what they would give you in actual trade value for the C4S you are considering.
I also don't need to be reminded that options and mileage need to be taken into account when valuing a Porsche. And I assume, as a previous 911 owner, that you don't need to be told that the resale value of $8k ceramic brakes on a car that isn't going to see a lot of serious track time is potentially a negative, due to the very high cost of maintenance and potential repairs (chipped rotors are $3k +/-).
Your previous posts had suggested that you had driven both cars, acknowledged that the 997 was superior in both performance and refinement, but you were being "advised" by the dealer to pay $104k+ for a used 996 C4S because it is "rare". Isn't he nice, watching out for your financial interests? I was simply trying to give you a more objective assessment, since I don't make a fat commission regardless of what you decide. Good luck either way.
Aug 06, 2005 (4:59 pm)
is I've driven lots of 911s over the years and as yet haven't had one of my own, so I'm just about ready to take the leap. I'd really like a Carrera S, but I'm wondering if the extra $10K or so is really worth it?
#153 of 2175 Re: My Problem [steelcruiser]
Aug 07, 2005 (12:51 pm)
It really depends on what you want. If you are looking for more of a street car (and if you aren't price insensitive), then I'd recommend the straight Carrera. The additional features on the S (PASM, 30 bhp, 19" wheels) cost $10k and are more of a hindrance (in the case of the 19" wheels) on a daily basis or irrelevant (PASM/less than 10% bhp increase) unless you are taking the car to the limit.
For all but the most extreme driving:
--the 19" wheels reduce comfort significantly and unnecessarily increase expense (upfront price, tire wear and replacement cost). [as an aside, when is the wheel size inflation going to end?]
--PASM isn't necessary--and only makes the already stiff suspension stiffer
Furthermore, a 30 bhp jump is pretty meager for a "S" badge . . .
However, if you plan to take it to the track, then I'd consider the S . . .
From my personal perspective, I am spending my $$ on traction--and thus have ordered a 911 Carrera 4. It feels like a much better use of $6k--better wet weather traction and the wide rear fenders.
It is unclear to me whether the S or straight Carrera will hold its value better . . . they seem to be making them in equal proportions. And, frankly, I don't care since I will either lease and turn mine in . . . or keep it for 20 years. This is a minor point at best.
Enjoy your test driving either way!
#154 of 2175 Re: My Problem [bsumner]
Aug 07, 2005 (1:18 pm)
Many thanks for your response--plenty of good points to ponder. For me, I think the straight Carrera sounds like the better alternative. As it is, either will probably be parked in my living room as I've been waiting a looooooong time to get one.
I've also been thinking BMW M3 which is a lot of fun too. Decisions, decisions.
If you have any other thoughts, they'd be much appreciated
Again, thanks for your time and info
#155 of 2175 Re: My Problem [steelcruiser]
Aug 07, 2005 (3:30 pm)
You're welcome. Gratified to hear you found my musings thoughtful.
1. I find that people are often very unrealistic as to what they are buying cars for and what they really need--and fall into the marketing spin. E.g., some people have their Carreras' brake calipers painted red to make them look like those of the Carrera S/Turbo. Or have them painted yellow to look like PCCB. When one is living in this zip code, one has seriously lost perspective--and totally bought into Porsche's carefully stratified caste system. When you consider that a base 997 is one of the quickest, most capable vehicles on the road, how important is it to have the best/fastest/etc. And at what cost (and profit to Stuttgart)?
2. M3 vs. 997: Fundamentally different class of car. It really depends on what you are willing to spend. I had the same decision and decided that I wanted no compromises in car (but that means that hauling my golf clubs in it will be a pain). Accordingly, pick your compromises. A very fast and somewhat convenient car vs. a sports car that compromises convenience.
#156 of 2175 Re: My Problem [steelcruiser]
Aug 07, 2005 (6:36 pm)
Reasonable people can dissagree, as is the case of me and bsumner.
I do agree that the base Carrera is a fine car that would satisfy most. However, after driving the 2005 Boxster S with and without PASM (and sport chrono), I noticed the difference and, given the choice, would order it on the 911. The "normal" mode can be manually selected and is virtually identical in comfort to the non-PASM car. But when the roads are smooth and you want the tighter, firmer feel, that sport button is nice, IMO.
The 19" wheels are mostly aesthetic, but the tires are not significantly more expense or have less treadwear life than the base Carrer's 18" wheels according to the guys I spoke with at the Tire Rack. In the Boxster S's I tested, I could barely notice any difference in comfort between the 18" and 19", with the 19" PASM one set on "normal" mode.
The other two standard features of the Carrera S are mandatory, IMO - Xenon lights and sport steering wheel.
So, when you add up the cost of the aforementioned options that come standard on the Carrera S, they equate to roughly half of the $10k difference in the base price. Is the extra 30 hp worth an additional $5k? I haven't test driven the 911 and 911S back to back, but from those I've talked to that have, they would claim the difference feels like a lot more than 30 hp. In fact, one of our friends who owns a 2003 911TT claims that the 997 911 S is almost as quick.
On the C2 vs. C4 issue, I'm again of the other opinion that carting around an extra 200+ lbs in a sports car for occasionally better rain performance, but a heavier, less nimble feel all of the time is not a trade off I would make. I'll slow down in the rain and not drive in the snow at all.
All of these opinions are purely subjective. However, if you would end up ordering a 911 base with many of the options that come standard on the S, I'd think the S might be worth the incremental difference at that point.
#157 of 2175 Re: My Problem [steelcruiser]
Aug 07, 2005 (8:40 pm)
Drive both, then decide. I thought the extra 10K was worth it, and bought an S Cab. By the time you option out the base Carrera, you are close to an S anyway in price (you will want fewer options with an S).
Some other thoughts:
(1) There is no difference in comfort or useability with 19 inch wheels. My S Cab has been a daily driver for 2500 miles since June and handles flawlessly. It is less harsh than my old Audi 2001 S4 with stock suspension.
(2) Same can be said with PASM. The car handles much tighter with PASM in sport mode. Even in sport mode, it is less harsh than my stock S4.
(3) Clearly, if you think that the extra 10K isn't worth it, go for the base Carrera--it is a wonderful car. But drive both if you can--there is nothing like personal experience to guide you.
To get an idea of where there are cars to test--check out the Porshce website under "find a dealer." Get all dealers within 100 miles of you, then go to their websites and find their new 911 inventory. You will find and S and non-S 911 to test...