Last post on Oct 24, 2013 at 5:25 PM
You are in the Porsche 911
What is this discussion about?
Porsche 911, Porsche Carrera GT, Coupe, Convertible
#141 of 2175 Re: 2005 911 vs. Boxster S vs. C6 Corvette Coupe [love2skicar1]
Aug 03, 2005 (3:38 am)
Are you NUTS????. $104k-$108k for a USED C4S?? (vs. a "brandy" new 2005 Cab S)
Your dealer must think you are a rich fool with the "value due to rarity" pitch. In every conceivable way the new 997 911 Cab is a better car than the 2004 C4S. Engineering, performance, interior quality, exterior styling, etc. And that's the base 997. Jump to the 2005 997 "S" version and you are that much further above the 2004 C4S.
I don't have personal ownership experience with the 911 (yet) but have picked the brain of a friend of ours who has owned a minimum of 2-3 Porsches at all times since about 1975. His current two are a pristine classic 356 and a 2003 911 Twin Turbo coupe w/X50. In one of our past discussions, he strongly discouraged me from considering the C4. It's one thing to have AWD to help put 450+ horsepower to the pavement, but in the standard coupe or cabriolet, it adds weight, up front expense, maintenance and repair costs and does not significantly improve the performance unless you like driving in the rain. Some (he) would say it is a net negative to the overall performance and "feel" of the 320 hp 996 911.
If you want to buy something rare, I suggest a Dali or Picasso. If you want to buy a sports car for $100k+/-, the 997 Cab S is by far the superior choice, IMO. And long before you think about peeing $104k+ away on a used C4S, check out the prices on used 911 TT Cabriolets. For not much/any more money, you could impress your wife with a real Twin Turbo, not just a C4S with "cool turbo body parts".
P.S. In your assessment of the Boxster S, I had little difficulty getting my Calloway bag in the rear trunk without taking the clubs out. It also can be ordered with PCM 2.1 (Navigation system included), although not too many are stock ordered that way.
#142 of 2175 Re: Question for Buyers: [nattyb]
Aug 03, 2005 (3:55 am)
I'll repeat the disclosure that I do not personally own a 911 (yet), but have researching the heck out of it and picking the brain of several friends and associates with Porsche 911 experience.
We live in the DC and have a second home in PA. I have been advised against the AWD system in the non-turbo versions of the 911, for the reasons listed in my post above: added weight, less nible feel and handling, higher expense, added maintenance and potential repair costs. And adding the AWD, but keeping the ultra high performance low profile summer tires will not help much with winter performance. By the time you add the cost of another set of winter wheels and snow tires to the mix, you could have leased a Honda Pilot for those 42 months to have as a backup vehicle.
Also, not sure where you are located or what dealer you are working with, but after the initial (no discounting) response I got a couple of months ago, I can now custom order a 2006 911 base or "S" for November delivery at $3,000 to $4,000+ off MSRP. Keep that in mind when negotiating the price of a 2005 pre-owned C2S.
Aug 03, 2005 (6:33 am)
If you want to buy something rare, I suggest a Dali or Picasso
No way.. I hear that Dali guy is painting like crazy... they will be all over the place..
#144 of 2175 Re: 2005 911 vs. Boxster S vs. C6 Corvette Coupe [habitat1]
Aug 03, 2005 (2:50 pm)
I'm sorry but you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to car values. I'm quite aware that the technology is better in the 997, but the rarity of a Porsche has more to do with resale value than the technology. Depreciation is by far the largest expense in owning a modern sports car. Check out the resale prices of 911's on the net over the years. Those with low production have best maintained their resale value, some have even appreciated over MSRP. Low mileage air cooled cars from 1996 which are rare anymore are selling for more than 996's 5 years newer which have "better technology."
And yes, my friend, 2004 C4S's routinely sell for more money than 997 Cab S's, so I must not be the only rich fool out there who likes the unique look of the car. You can buy slightly used Cab S's on ebay right now for $90K, soon to be $85K when the 06's come out; try to find a C4S in similar condition for the same.
So that's why buying a rarer 911 can be wiser in the long run than buying a less expensive Boxster which is produced in much higher volumes and depreciates like a normal car.
But you do what you want, I guess it's better to be a rich fool than just a fool.
#145 of 2175 Re: Question for Buyers: [habitat1]
Aug 03, 2005 (5:54 pm)
Thanks very much. That's great advice. In fact, I was thinking of doing exactly as you say and getting a backup Honda Pilot for snow and my little ones.
#146 of 2175 Re: Comments Please [pabs1]
Aug 03, 2005 (6:04 pm)
yes, I meant all of the late 05 and all 06 997 non-S and S have CD head units that read MP3s
#147 of 2175 Re: 2005 911 vs. Boxster S vs. C6 Corvette Coupe [love2skicar1]
Aug 03, 2005 (6:25 pm)
Have you actually driven a 2005 S Cab and a 2004 C4S Cab back to back? I have, and I own a 2005 S Cab. Interestingly, I asked my Porsche salesman about it as well, and he agreed completely--he would even take an 2005 S Cab over a 2004 Turbo Cab, which I found surprising.
It is an entirely different experience driving a 997 than a 996, from the apperance of better fit and finish in the 2005 to better handling and acceleration. A lot of this is subjective, so if you drive both and like the 996, then get it.
One thing that is interesting to hear is talk about resale value and "rarity." Look, we are all dropping close to or above $90-100K for these cars, from what I hope for many if not most of us is very disposable income (this car to me is really an extreme luxury). This is a purchase with your heart, not your head.
It is never a wise business decision to invest in a depreciating asset. Sure, a rare Porsche may be worth more in the future--provided you keep it pristine in your garage and never drive it, so there is no damage, dings, stone chip marks, etc when you sell it.
If you need to feel like you are making an investment to make you feel better about the purchase, OK, go with it--but there are better ways to make money, as I am sure you know.
I bought this car to drive it--period. Its a Porsche, so I think I won't get totally killed on the resale. The joy I have driving it is worth every bit of depreciation that I am going to take.
#148 of 2175 Re: 2005 911 vs. Boxster S vs. C6 Corvette Coupe [love2skicar1]
Aug 03, 2005 (8:00 pm)
Sorry to jump on, but it appears to me that YOU don't know what you are talking about in this instance and, rich or not, you would be foolish to come even close to paying $100k+ for a used 2004 C4S Cab.
First, there is nothing particularly "rare" about a 2004 C4S other than the number of buyers that wanted to buy one new. Porsche increased its production capacity with the 996 model and could have produced as many of its 911's in AWD format as the demand warranted. The fact is that most Porsche purists don't want an AWD 911, especially the 996 base model with only 320 horsepower. To claim the C4S is rare because of anything other than limited demand is simply incorrect.
Second, while it is true that some Porsche purists have bid up the price of late model air cooled 993's, there is no love affair with the 996. It's neither as "pure" as the 993, nor nearly as good as the new 997. I personally agree with S4to911, I would choose the 997 S Cab over the 996 Turbo Cab. I would trade off 0.5 seconds 0-60 for the upgraded interior, better handling and other refinements.
Third, if you really want a used 2004 C4S Cab, shop around. I believe the price for a pristine one with under 5,000 miles should be closer to $75,000 - $80,000. I was in DC earlier this year and saw one at Select Auto Imports for around that price. They are reputable, as one of my business partners has bought his last two cars from them.
Finally, don't kid yourself with the economics of buying a "rare" car.. You want to talk really rare?? I owned a 1979 BMW M1. BMW's Motorsport Group made a grand total of 455 of these over a 4 year period of time. I sold the mine in 1983 (we were moving out of the country) for $55,000. I put $50,000 of the sales price into an investment account subject to an agreement with my wife that it would be available for a future sports car purchase when we returned. That fund, as of yesterday's stock market close, is now worth exactly $2,134,557.80. That's a compounded annual return of 18.6%. I have purchased several sports cars in the interim 22 years out of other discretionary funds, but decided to keep the "sports car" fund intact as a lesson to our kids of the importance of saving and the value of compounding (not to mention a pretty good fund manager).
If you really like the 2004 C4S more than the 2005 997 S, that is certainly your perogative. But I do think you are being shnookered into thinking you are getting something that you are not, and potentially paying an extremely inflated price for it. I hope at least that you shop around a bit more.
#149 of 2175 Re: Comments Please [s4to911]
Aug 03, 2005 (9:31 pm)
Thanks so much.
I guess I have to tell my Salesperson to be aware of the fact that Late models 05 and 06 997 and 997 S have an MP3 capability
Again, Thanks for the info.
#150 of 2175 Re: 2005 911 vs. Boxster S vs. C6 Corvette Coupe [spiritinthesky]
Aug 03, 2005 (10:32 pm)
You are very confident anyone paying $100K for a C4S is foolish, so go ahead and do a simple search on ebay or autotrader and tell us what you find. If you can find a reasonably equipped C4S for $75-80K TODAY (vs. winter) with 4K miles, then I suggest you buy it and sell it the next day, because you'll do even better than you did in your investment account. The lowest I found on ebay or autotrader was $94K for a car with fewer options and more miles.
The reason for the discrepancy is that you have to take into account options (and mileage) when valuing a Porsche (and other cars like classic Corvettes) because they influence the supply demand equation. The car in question has ceramic brakes ($8K), navigation ($3K), full leather, carbon fiber interior, special wheels, sports exhaust ($1K), power memory seats, and 4K miles so that accounts for the higher price vs. more normally equipped, higher mileage version. A car with fewer options and just a few more thousand miles would be worth significantly less.
I give up..the only person who added to this question was the person who had driven them back to back. It's hard to find dealers with both models in stock at the same time so that information was helpful, so thank you.
Still waiting for the $75-80K C4S