Last post on Sep 04, 2008 at 8:40 AM
You are in the Honda Civic
What is this discussion about?
Honda Civic, Sedan
#582 of 4597 Scion is the Entry-Level Brand...
Aug 04, 2005 (6:44 pm)
And Toyota acknowledges this. Afterall, it is priced below and positioned under Toyota in all respects.
Recently, the average age for Honda, Toyota and to an extent Nissan's buyer's bases have increased with each redesign. So it seems that buyers of the new Accord, Camries, Civic and Corollas of the world were probably repeat buyers who are driving up the aveage buyers age. And that makes perfect sense when you think about it.
For example, my mother was 23 at the time when she got her first Honda. It was an 1983 Honda Civic, which at that time was a compact car that was reliable and had a low price. She was pregnant with me at the time and buy the time I was born, she upgraded to the 1984 Accord. She has since bought a 1992 Honda Accord, 1995 Honda Passport and a 2003 Honda Odyssey. Now, at age 43 (twenty years!!!!), she is getting ready to get a Honda Pilot EXL (2006) By the time I finish college and get a good job, I'll be getting my mother an Acura TL (her first Acura)
So basically, my mother is aging with Honda and will eventually move over to Acura. She bought Honda because it was the best car she ever had (after a couple of Escorts, Chevelles, etc.)
The poster "Anonymouspost" is another good example of this. I think her first car was a 1992 Accord EX Coupe. She's literally been with Honda since. And has since had Civics, Accords (on her third 7th gen model) and an Odyssey. ( I hope she doesn't mind me using her as an example!)
I, on the other hand, was not at all interested in the Accord, Camry, Civic or Corolla's styling when I got my first car last year. The cars were nice, but the styling didn't do much for me. But I knew they were good cars because I grow up in them. I'm 19 (almost twenty) a mere 3 years younger than my mother was when she first got her 83 Civic. The Civic appealed to her back in 85, but it doesn't appeal to me in 05 (06, I like so far). My sister, who is four years older than me doesn't like the current Civic either.
That's what scares the heck out of Honda, Toyota and Nissan (somewhat). Younger folks aren't buying their products like they did back in the 70s, 80s and early 90s. The lower prices of those days are gone, as well as the sportiness(especially Honda) but that could change with the new Civic. Also the latest small cars from these brands get bigger and bigger with each generation. The current Corolla and Civic are as big as the Accord and Camrys of the 90s.
So this has become a bittersweet thing for these companies. On one hand, they have a loyal base of customers who repeatedly buy their new products. But these customers are aging and the younger folks are buying up other cars (the reason Mazda and Mitsubishi have younger buying ages, and probably lower sells too.)
Then they have Kia and Hyundai, who are improving OVERNIGHT it seems in quality and having cars at lower prices.
So Toyota, like always, usually leads the pack, and they came out with Scion to try and draw in the younger buyers into the brand. The xA and xB are most definitely entry-level cars because they lack the size, power and price of the compact Civic, Corolla, Sentra and other cars of today. The Echo was Toyota's attempt at this, but it was ugly (subjective).
Honda is doing similar things as well, but they don't have to worry about the aging demographic as much as Toyota does (Ages 56 vs. 52 with the Camry and Accord) That's why Honda isn't introducing a brand under them, but instead coming out with the FIT (hatch and sedan) and they already have the Element to compete with the xB. The FIT, in hatchback form will compete with the xA. The Civic coupe, of course, will compete with the Scion tC.
Nissan is doing similar things as well. They'll be coming out with smaller sedan under the Sentra, and a small hatchback and coupe in 2007. The Nissan CUBE isn't coming here unfortunately.
These companies are trying to cater to the younger, college-bound crowd. Like they did back in the day when my mother was my age. So today's FIT is more in line with yesterday's Honda Civic..and today's tC is more in line with the Celicas of yore.
And thus, Scion is an Entry-level brand that competes with Honda's Element and soon-to-be FIT...to cater to the younger folks who can't afford the Civics, Corollas and other cars of the world. The tC is basically the alternative Civic coupe (because I can't see a Corolla coupe)
That, in essence is why Toyota has dropped the Celica, MR2 Spider and Echo. Those cars are more entry level and sporty, and thus the xA in a sense replaces the Echo and the tC replaces the Celica (and is cheaper too).
So in the end SCION could be seen as the Entry level brand and sportier brand of Toyota. Because the tC is somewhat sporty, but the xA and xB really are not, and all these cars, based on price and size are lower than what Toyota would want to offer.
Aug 04, 2005 (7:29 pm)
with you there about Scion.
#584 of 4597 Re: Scion is the Entry-Level Brand... [maxamillion1]
Aug 04, 2005 (11:37 pm)
Give the kid a prize for a very thoughful and well written explanation.
Aug 05, 2005 (12:18 am)
...Give me a Job
Specifically Honda, Nissan, Toyota or Mazda. I'll take whoever offers the best(smiles)
That's the goal for me after college graduation, and of course to buy another car from one of the top four Japanese automakers. Really waiting for the next Sentra.
That's the dream.
#586 of 4597 Re: Scion is the Entry-Level Brand... [maxamillion1]
Aug 05, 2005 (5:21 am)
Hate break it to you, but your mom is 45. IF she was 23 in 1983, that means she was born in 1960, which makes her 45 in 2005. Other than that, good post.
#587 of 4597 Re: Oh my gosh [ctalk]
Aug 05, 2005 (5:27 am)
" Although it shares a 160-horsepower rating with the Camry, it actually has slightly less torque (161 pound-feet versus 163 lb-ft). Strange…maybe it works out at the same gym that BMW's inline sixes belong to."
There is odviously something better about Honda's engine.
* I dont know about the drag coefficient though... I remember reading somewhere Camry's was better, maybe i'm wrong.
Hond ais good at eliminating drive train losses. Average car loses about 20-30% to the tranny and such, Honda only loses 10-15%. Plus Honda knows how to gear transmissions for their engines, so that they are producing power and provide fuel economy.
When the new Accord came out, Temple VTEC dynoed it, when they applied the coefficient they have been using to conver wheel HP to crank HP it came out at 180 hp. But when the engine is dyoned on the stand it produced 160 hp. This just meant that Honda was able to reduce the drive train losses to put more power to the wheels.
This is why Accord is more fuel efficent and faster than Camry. It is an old logic: "Do more with less" Honda's 160 hp Civic Si can whip Toyota's 180 hp Corolla XRS/Matrix XRS, and can hang with the 175 hp Sentra SE-R Spec V. Same for regular Civic with 127 or even 115 Hp being competitive with Toyota's 130 hp Corolla.
Aug 05, 2005 (5:47 am)
Vehicle weight also plays a role in this. The civic is still a pretty lightweight vehicle at the 2,650 range.
Should be a fun car. A 12% increase in max torque achieved at only 4300 rpms on a light car should really have some pull when you hit it.
#589 of 4597 My worthless two cents :-)
Aug 05, 2005 (6:23 am)
Amongst this bickering I just wanted to inject a couple of my own two cents...
1) I loooooooooove the european Civic and it's a shame that we'll never get it. I'm surprised that, with the success of certain hatchbacks in the US, Honda wouldn't give it a try. Neither the couple, nor the sedan, can have the versatility and space of the hatch. The trunks could be cavernous, but the opening will limit the utility, as always.
2) I care more about MPG numbers than HP numbers. I live in the city so faster acceleration just means I can beat out the guy next to me to the next stop light.. .woopee.
3) Honda is trying to revise the Civic from the current Ho-hum design to something with a bit more excitement. It was the exactly this current sleep enducing design that caused me to look elsewhere when I sold my 96 Civic in 2001. I loved the car, but wanted something that wouldn't blend into the background.
4) Normally, I would bet that the interior on the euro model would never EVER make it to the US model, but because of the economies of scale, it doesn't make much sense for honda to keep that dash for only one market. If not 100% the same, it has to be very very similar.
Lastly, it's a Honda, it will have a cult following and it won't flop, that's just a given. It may not be a run-away success, but Honda has yet to botch a new model introduction.
#590 of 4597 Re: My worthless two cents :-) [fdanna]
Aug 05, 2005 (8:25 am)
With regrads to flops, I think the current civic Si (EP3) is a flop. It does not have enough feature content and/or power for the price Honda sets the MSRP at.
I think the Acura Vigor was a flop as well.
#591 of 4597 Re: Oh my gosh [blueiedgod]
Aug 05, 2005 (8:27 am)
"Do more with less"
Guess that explains why my 2002 Odyssey has better HP numbers, better MPG numbers, and better fuel economy all while carrying more weight that a 2002 Sienna.