Ask the Car People.SM


Where do sales of HEV go when gas goes $2.50-$3? - READ ONLY

38 messages,  Last post on Aug 27, 2004 at 5:34 AM

You are in the Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Forum.

This discussion is ARCHIVED. To reactivate the discussion, post a request in the Lost? Ask the Hybrids Host for directions! discussion.

What is this discussion about? Hybrid Cars, Fuel Efficiency (MPG)

Messages Page 2 of 4

#9 of 38 by xcel

Aug 24, 2004 (10:51 pm)

Hi John:
 
There are actually only 16 that offer that rating.
 
___Actually, there are 41 as I posted earlier. They can be seen at the following plus Honda and Kia themselves:
 
http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/en/gv/vsearch/cleansearch_result.asp
 
http://www.cleanairchoices.org/cleanairchoicevehicles2005.html
 
2004 BMW 325Ci Coupe
2004 BMW 325i Sedan
2004 BMW 325i Sports Wagon
2004 Daimler Chrysler Sebring Sedan
2004 Dodge Stratus Sedan SXT
2004 Ford Focus LX
2004 Ford Focus SE Sedan
2004 Ford Focus SE Wagon
2004 Ford Focus ZTS Sedan
2004 Ford Focus ZX3
2004 Ford Focus ZX5
2005 Ford Focus ZX3
2005 Ford Focus ZX4
2005 Ford Focus ZX5
2005 Ford Focus ZXW
2004 Honda Accord EX Sedan
2004 Honda Accord LX Sedan
2005 Honda Accord EX Sedan
2005 Honda Accord LX Sedan
2004 Hyundai Elantra GLS 2.0L
2004 Kia Spectra
2005 Kia Spectra 5
2004 Mazda MAZDA3
2004 Mitsubishi Galant DE and ES 2.4L
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5, 2.5S or 2.5SL
2005 Nissan Altima 2.5, 2.5S
2004 Nissan Sentra 1.8
2004 Nissan Sentra 1.8S
2004 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT Sedan
2004 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT Wagon
2004 Subaru Legacy L Sedan/35th Anniv. Ed.
2004 Subaru Legacy L Wagon/35th Anniv. Ed.
2004 Subaru Legacy Outback Limited Sedan
2004 Subaru Legacy Outback Limited Wagon
2004 Subaru Legacy Outback Limited Wagon
2005 Subaru Legacy 2.5 AWD Sedan
2005 Subaru Legacy 2.5 AWD Wagon
2004 Toyota Camry LE, SE or XLE
2004 Volkswagen Jetta Sedan GL or GLS 2.0L
2004 Volvo 2.4 S60 Sedan
2004 Volvo 2.4 V70 Wagon
 
+ 7 CNG powered ICE’s including
 
2004 Honda Civic GX
2004 Ford E250 CNG Van
2004 Ford E350 CNG SuperDuty Ext. Van
2004 Ford E350 CNG SuperDuty Ext. Wagon
2004 Ford E350 CNG SuperDuty Van
2004 Ford E350 CNG SuperDuty Wagon
2004 Ford E350 CNG SuperDuty Wagon
 
And of those 16, only 1 is available outside of California.
 
___You can pick many of the PZEV’s listed above from any number of states including Maine, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Vermont, and California.
 
___Wayne R. Gerdes

#10 of 38 Re: [xcel] by gagrice

Aug 25, 2004 (6:00 am)

Replying to: xcel (Aug 24, 2004 10:51 pm)
It should be pointed out that these cars would be PZEV in any state if they had low sulfur clean gas. Most states still sell lousy gas. Maybe all states will set higher standards for their gas. It may be a Federal mandate as the ULSD will be in 2006. That would improve emissions from most cars already on the road.

#11 of 38 Re: [xcel] by john1701a

Aug 25, 2004 (6:00 am)

Replying to: xcel (Aug 24, 2004 10:51 pm)
Separating trim levels is another way of being vague. You should have mentioned that in the first place. It was implied that you meant different vehicles, not models of the same.
 
Numbers are still missing too. Please provide quantity actually sold. As far as I'm concerned, vehicles like Insight, for example, don't even count since there are so few (only 34 sold nationwide in July.) The same could apply to your PZEV claim.
  
Prices are absent as well.
 
No matter, the odds of any automaker embracing PZEV on the large scale is simply not going to happen. Many have already filed lawsuits against CARB for that very reason. Voluntarily adding cost to their vehicles at the penalty of decreasing the MPG a little bit for the sake of cleaner emissions is just plain not realistic. That's why hybrids, like Prius, are so much more appealing instead.
 
JOHN

#12 of 38 Re: Where do sales of HEV go when gas goes $2.50-$3? [hotshot24] by solar_dad

Aug 25, 2004 (12:09 pm)

Replying to: hotshot24 (Aug 24, 2004 3:27 pm)
In CA early this year, the HCH was available for immediate delivery with a $2K discount. Once gas hit $2.50 here in May (it has since eased somewhat), it turned into list price and a 30-60 day wait. So hybrid demand was very sensitive to gas price.
 
Mike

#13 of 38 Get out your calculator by john1701a

Aug 25, 2004 (3:00 pm)

Crunching the numbers doesn't necessitate rocket science. It's actually pretty simple... and quite eye-opening.
 
The argument that HSD provides a gain of 15 MPG for a midsize car doesn't a require much debate. That fact is fairly solid now, based on data from real-world mixed (that's everything but highway-only) driving. So... comparing the 150,000 mile difference between Prius at 50 MPG total and a comparable sized traditional vehicle averaging 35 MPG, you get 1,286 gallons.
 
At $2.10 per gallon, which is likely way too low of a price over the years (roughly 8, which brings us to 2012) it will take to travel that distance, it calculates to a savings of $2,701.
 
At $2.25 per gallon, a more realistic price based on the way demand continues to grow and the way supply continues to shrink, the savings grows to $2,894.
 
At $2.50 per gallon, which is likely still too low (especially since it's over $4.00 per gallon already in Europe), the favor swings heavily for HSD in a midsize car, all the way to $3,215.
 
Considering the fact that an HSD equipped vehicle doesn't actually require a Multi-Display (touch-screen) interface, the numbers become even more appealing. A traditional interface would lower the cost by around $500.
 
And of course, no data has been presented that battery-pack replacement will *EVER* required. All the data has revealed so far is that the aging process will begin to reduce efficiency after about 150,000 miles. That's it. Acceleration power won't even suffer, since there will plenty of capacity remaining to provide short boosts of electricity. There will just be a drop in MPG. So there should not be any late-life expenses. In fact, since the PSD is always engaged and never shifts, it should outlast an automatic transmission and the clutch on a manual. Therefore, money can actually be saved compared to a traditional vehicle.
 
If you really want to push the issue, take a look at the $3.00 per gallon savings. It works out to $3,858.

#14 of 38 PSD by falconone

Aug 25, 2004 (4:07 pm)

Interesting numbers John. You mention the PSD which I find quite fascinating. Why don't all cars have that? IF (big if!!) that goes, do you think the cost of replacement will be greater than replacing/repairing an automatic transmission?

#15 of 38 Re: Get out your calculator [john1701a] by gagrice

Aug 25, 2004 (4:36 pm)

Replying to: john1701a (Aug 25, 2004 3:00 pm)
If you really want to push the issue, take a look at the $3.00 per gallon savings. It works out to $3,858.
 
That does not cover the $5k many are getting gouged by the dealers. I don't think anyone would argue that if the Prius is bought at MSRP compared to other cars that are comparably equipped selling at MSRP. the Prius is a good deal and environmentally great. I would not worry about the battery in CA where it is covered for 150,000 miles or 8 years. I'm not clear on what else is covered on that part of the warranty. If it covers all the electronics and fancy gadgetry it is probably a safe bet.

#16 of 38 Re: Get out your calculator [gagrice] by john1701a

Aug 25, 2004 (5:02 pm)

Replying to: gagrice (Aug 25, 2004 4:36 pm)
> That does not cover the $5k many are getting gouged by the dealers.
 
If demand remains that much higher than actual supply for that many years, you can kiss your argument goodbye. Hybrids being that popular is your worse fear. Of course, what's even worse is when supply does keep up with demand. You'll see them everywhere!
 
The LONG-TERM look at hybrids is difficult to disagree with, it is quite favorable.
 
The comment about the other "electronics" parts falls on deaf ears, since traditional vehicles are loaded with them too.
 
JOHN

#17 of 38 Re: PSD [falconone] by john1701a

Aug 25, 2004 (5:15 pm)

Replying to: falconone (Aug 25, 2004 4:07 pm)
> You mention the PSD which I find quite fascinating. Why don't all cars have that?
 
It's impossible to implement on a system that only has a single power source, just an engine. You need to be able to combine & vary multiple power sources for it to work.
 
> IF (big if!!) that goes, do you think the cost of replacement will be greater than replacing/repairing an automatic transmission?
 
How often do you hear of a differential failing or even to be replaced due to slipping? Answer: virtually never.
 
The PSD is setup exactly like a differential. So the odds are very much in your favor. There's far better chance of being in an accident instead.
 
Odds are the replacement costs is similar to something like replacing a head-gasket or analog-speedometer... fairly easy, but it the labor charge will be rather hefty since it takes so long.
 
JOHN

#18 of 38 Sorry, Prius pushes "midsize" by stevedebi

Aug 25, 2004 (5:16 pm)

The Prius is rated midsize only because they built the car vertically (it is tall). The cars is small in width and in square footage in the trunk. (please read square footage, not cubic, before replying to the trunk issue).
 
If it weren't a hatchback, it wouldn't even qualify as a midsize.
 
This is significant because the cars to compare with the Prius are compact cars, not midsize. I suppose that john's numbers would actually be even better against midsize cars, which generally get no more than 30 MPG in real world driving, and only mid 20's in town.
 
However, the issue of a savings of $3850 (john's maximum) and cost comparisons over the lifetime of the car depend upon the price actually paid for the smaller car. To achieve 35 MPG, the cars are considerably cheaper up front (these numbers have been discussed ad nauseum in these forums). Hence, a compact car will save a lot more money up front than a midsize car.

Messages Page 2 of 4

Advertisement

Browse by Category

Browse by Vehicle
   View All Vehicles

Browse by Board
Browse by Topic
View All Topics

Edmunds Community

Advertisement