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Hybrid Vehicles Ethanol - E85 FlexFuel Is Ethanol good for the environment?
165 messages, Last post on Sep 24, 2008 at 5:25 AM
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Replying to: snakeweasel (Mar 18, 2006 5:35 am) |
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I work in an air quality program and some of the info here is not quite correct. Currently I'm trying to find what the VOC emissions are for E85 fuel. Don't confuse this with commonly available E10, sometimes referred to as "gasahol" or just ethanol. This fuel does make gasoline more evaporative and therefore can lead to increase levels of ground-level ozone. A big study by the state of Wisconsin has shown this to be the case. The press commonly refers to ALL ethanol-gasoline blends as just "ethanol" when everything I have read is that E85 shows a decrease in ozone precursors. also a big reduction in CO2 so it has greenhouse benefits. There is a lot of discussion regarding the amount of energy it takes to produce a gallon of ethanol. The agriculture community usually says it takes less energy to produce one gallon of fuel. The detractors say it takes more, but you do have to look at how they account for this. One study included the energy used to produce the tractors that farm the fields and that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. IT would only work if you did the same things for crude oil production. A petroleum geologist I know says it takes about 1 barrel of crude to produce two barrels (roughly). With the ethanol I'm basically looking at a 1-to- ratio for ethanol, basically splitting the difference at least at this point.
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Replying to: snakeweasel (Mar 18, 2006 5:35 am) Assuming, of course, you can find an E85 station. As for E10, pretty much any car can use it.
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Replying to: owenthursday (Mar 24, 2006 4:27 pm) I know, I was using that to show that widespread use of E85 is impractable. |
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Replying to: owenthursday (Mar 24, 2006 1:39 pm) Sorry, but I don't see how that helps the case for ethanol. If I have one barrel of oil I can "invest" that energy in producing two barrels of oil, leaving me with a net energy gain of one barrel of oil. Alternatively I can convert it to its energy equivalent in ethanol which leaves me with a net energy gain of about zero.
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Replying to: jeffyscott (Mar 26, 2006 10:19 am)
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| Interesting discussion, as all ethanol discussions are. Besides the perceived negatives or positives concerning ethanol's mileage, pollution benefits, smog/ozone factors, availability, production, transportation, etc., etc., we are forgetting a critical piece of the puzzle: It takes monster amounts of water to grow the corn, which is subsidized by the government, and tons of water in the ethanol-making process, which is also subsidized through tax incentives and property tax breaks. Our groundwater reserves, which we'll need in the future, are precipitously falling. Then there's yet another subsidy for ethanol at the pump. Corn is the most environmentally destructive crop our farmers grow, and we're dishing out millions every year so they can continue to overproduce it, which keeps the price down (which is actually good for ethanol plants, but not for farmers). Until ethanol technology develops to accept switchgrass, woody materials, landfill waste, etc., as fuelstuffs, there is little benefit except for corporate agribusiness and the corn lobby. I think ethanol does have a future, however -- we just need to get off this corn habit ASAP. | |
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Replying to: gagrice (Mar 26, 2006 10:51 am) That begs the question of how many order of fries do you have to fry to get enough biodiesel to get you around for a week? |
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Replying to: gagrice (Mar 26, 2006 10:51 am)
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Replying to: john500 (Mar 27, 2006 6:05 am) It is pretty simple really. As long as it takes approximately a barrel of oil to produce a barrel of ethanol, a balance is maintained. Actually a better balance for the oil companies. It only takes a barrel of oil to produce two barrels of fossil oil. So ADM and Exxon share in the double cost of ethanol. A win, win for big oil and big ag companies. Now throw in biodiesel. It only takes a barrel of oil to produce 3.2 barrels of biodiesel. Plus that barrel of oil could be in the form of biodiesel. There is not much chance that tractors will run on gas or ethanol. They will run just fine on biodiesel. A self perpetuating fuel source. Don't let that out onto the market. I know we will give the lemmings a gas hybrid that runs on ethanol. That should shut them up for a while. 3 cheers for the governor of Montana for thinking outside the Washington lobby.
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