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Hybrid Vehicles Ethanol - E85 FlexFuel Is Ethanol good for the environment?
165 messages, Last post on Sep 24, 2008 at 5:25 AM
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Replying to: gagrice (Jul 29, 2004 5:50 am) SHOW ME THE DATA! Being shoveled digested information serves no purpose but to entertain. Not knowing how the conclusion was come to is clearly evidence of a non-objective stance. JOHN
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Replying to: john1701a (Jul 29, 2004 6:03 am) What is the 52 cents per gallon subsidy? That comes out of my taxes. you should be paying that with every gallon you purchase, not me. As a MN farmer I can tell you the only way to plant corn year after year is with huge amounts of chemical fertilizer. That in itself is very harmful to the ground water in YOUR state. ADM does not care if you have lousy water. My property was right on the Long Prairie River and we refused to use any chemicals that would leech into the river. Only the stuff our cattle produced. You will have a hard time finding data that is current because it is hidden in a cloak of deception. No one in the business is going to tell you they are spending 2 bucks to produce a bucks worth of Ethanol. Not when Uncle Sam has a 5 billion dollar subsidy sitting on the table for the next 8 years. Alaska got an exemption because it caused way more ice fog in the winter during testing. I'm surprised you don't see more in Minneapolis in the winter.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jul 29, 2004 6:31 am) Yet, you believe the info you have. What's wrong with that picture? The EPA and select colleges perform studies of that nature all the time. They publicly publish their findings. Let's see those. JOHN
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Replying to: john1701a (Jul 29, 2004 6:37 am) Nothing is wrong with that picture. Cornell University's study is the only viable study that has been made public. Show me a study where Ethanol is making money and does not have an adverse environmental impact. Here is an article touting the virtues of Ethanol. What's wrong with this picture? More than 60% of the world’s supply of ethanol is estimated to be derived from sugar, with Brazil – a sugarcane growing country – in the lead. I see nothing wrong with clearing the rainforset to plant Sugarcane, duh!!! http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_old_idea_made/
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Replying to: gagrice (Jul 29, 2004 6:49 am) You are the one insisting the ALL OR NONE approach, not me. Clearly, we have different goals. JOHN
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U.S. Department of Energy Study indicates that ethanol is responsible for more nitrous oxide. Now let me research Biodiesel for you..... http://www.qctimes.com/qcbizjournal/internal.php?story_id=1030270- &l=1&t=Agriculture&c=93,1030270 |
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Replying to: john1701a (Jul 29, 2004 7:10 am) Where did you get that impression? I already pay higher prices for fuel in CA than you do. I don't want the added burden of transporting Ethanol for some contrived plan to pull the Midwest out of the doldrums. I am looking for viable alternatives to our dependence on foriegn oil. If we are going to use our coal and Natural gas to produce Ethanol, why not just burn the Natural Gas in the car to start with. Why pass it through several layers of bureaucracy first and come out with a less environmentally sound product. That is like making hydrogen from Natural Gas. Why bother, just burn the gas to start with. There is no way we will eliminate foreign oil in our lifetime. I am all for reducing the consumption. There are too many opposing forces at every step. No matter what technology or resource is used someone is not going to like it and put roadblocks in the way. Just as you would block the use of diesel because of your bias toward hybrid/ethanol burning vehicles. I think your use of those resources is great. You get great mileage from your Prius and I applaud that. There are other options that are good also. I want them all to have an equal chance to succeed.
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Hello? Anyone care to post the links to the actual data on ethanol? I can make a statement here that Ethanol is really good and 100 percent renewable and great for the environment. Hmmm, it seems I didn't post any supporting data (and I'm not talking supporting opinions but rather scientific data). Yet under the rules most people seem to use here, that statement must obiously be true. For the record, the above is in jest, I have no position on ethanol ... because I haven't seen conclusive data either way. However I do have a position on scientific evidence... I am enthusiastically in favor of it! |
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Replying to: stevedebi (Jul 29, 2004 10:30 am) http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Aug01/corn-basedethanol.hrs.- html
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Replying to: gagrice (Jul 29, 2004 11:37 am) However, the study is available (though probably not on line): "His findings will be published in September, 2001 in the forthcoming Encyclopedia of Physical Sciences and Technology " BTW, this information is thus 3 years old... Here is a pretty good report that lists lots of references, if anyone wants to persue the topic: http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/AF/265.pdf The following is the conclusion (since it is an engergy department study, it is in the public domain and not copywrited). "We conclude that the NEV of corn-ethanol is positive when fertilizers are produced by modern processing plants, corn is converted in modern ethanol facilities, and farmers achieve average corn yields. Our NEV estimate of over 21,000 Btu per gallon could be considered conservative, since it was derived using the replacement method for valuing coproducts, and it does not include energy credits for plants that sell carbon dioxide. Corn ethanol is energy efficient, as indicated by an energy ratio of 1.34; that is, for every Btu dedicated to producing ethanol there is a 34- percent energy gain. Furthermore, producing ethanol from domestic corn stocks achieves a net gain in a more desirable form of energy, which helps the United States to reduce its dependence on imported oil. Ethanol production utilizes abundant domestic energy feedstocks, such as coal and natural gas, to convert corn into a premium liquid fuel. Only about 17 percent of the energy used to produce ethanol comes from liquid fuels, such as gasoline and diesel fuel. For every 1 Btu of liquid fuel used to produce ethanol, there is a 6.34 Btu gain. When looking at past NEV studies, it appears that energy requirements for producing a gallon of ethanol are falling over time. One of the primary factors for this increase in energy efficiency is the increase in U.S. corn yields. When ethanol first emerged as a gasoline extender in the 1970s, corn yield was averaging about 90 bushels per acre. This study used 1995-97 average corn yield of 125 bushels per acre, which is about 39 percent greater than the yields of the 1970s. Corn yields continue to rise in the United States—the average corn yield per acre for the past 3 years (1999-2001) was about 135 bushels per acre. If the 1999-2001 average corn yield were used in this analysis, the total energy used to produce a bushel of corn would decline by more than 4,200 Btu. As corn yields increase over time, we can expect the energy balance of corn ethanol to increase, as well. Other major factors causing this increase in energy efficiency are related to the energy-saving technologies adopted by ethanol producers and manufacturers of fertilizers and other farm inputs. Higher energy costs will likely continue to provide incentives for these industries to become more energy efficient, which will continue to push the NEV of corn ethanol higher."
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