- #127 of 165
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Re: show me the DATA [gagrice]
by jeffyscott
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May 17, 2006 (6:33 am)
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Replying to: gagrice (May 16, 2006 4:25 pm)
In addition to the fossil fuel used to grow it, it is infeasible to replace all or a significant portion of the oil with corn ethanol because of the amount of land required to grow enough corn to do this.
Even for more efficient crops, the land requirements are huge. One estimate here says:
As for the land required to support significant biofuel production from a dedicated energy crop, switch grass offers a basis for estimation. It grows rapidly, with an expected harvest one or two years after planting. Ignoring crop rotation, an acre under cultivation will produce five to 10 tons of switch grass annually, which in turn provides 50 to 100 gallons of ethanol per ton of biomass. Thus the land requirement needed to displace one million barrels of oil per day (about 10% of U.S. oil imports projected by 2025), is 25 million acres (or 39,000 square miles). This is roughly 3% of the crop, range and pasture land that the Department of Agriculture classifies as available in the U.S.
So, based on this, replacing all imported oil would take 30% of land.
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- #128 of 165
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Re: show me the DATA [zarplex2003]
by fireball1
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May 18, 2006 (5:29 pm)
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Replying to: zarplex2003 (May 16, 2006 1:40 pm)
The message from the corn and ethanol lobbies that ethanol from corn is "renewable" is an absolute joke. Sure, we can grow as much corn as we want, and the energy equation might be a slight positive, but let's get real here. Corn is sucking the Ogallala Aquifer dry in the Great Plains -- check out all the maps and stats from the U.S. Geological Survey. Agriculture, predominantly the irrigation of corn, accounts for more than 95 percent of all water use in the Midwest. That is anything BUT renewable. Corn ethanol boosters also conveniently forget the amount of fossil fuels needed to (1) fertilize the corn; (2) get the corn to the ethanol plant, and (3) process the ethanol. Indirectly, ethanol gets SIX subsidies from the government -- one for overproducing the corn, one for incentives and tax breaks for building the plants, one at the gas pumps, and three others that go with its fossil fuel consumption. Ethanol backers love to point out the subsidies that go to oil, but they forget that ethanol CONTRIBUTES TO THOSE SUBSIDIES because it also uses oil and natural gas. By the way, keep an eye on the price of natural gas. The higher up it goes, the more ethanol plants will go to coal. And we all know what coal does for our air. In this scenario, making ethanol is a lose-lose proposition. Only when ethanol gets away from the destructive growing of corn will it become viable in the long term. That is apparent to everyone outside the corn lobby, ethanol lobby, Congress and some hare-brained environmentalists.
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- #129 of 165
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Re: show me the DATA [fireball1]
by raychuang00
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May 18, 2006 (8:34 pm)
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Replying to: fireball1 (May 18, 2006 5:29 pm)
I think the best solution is to grow "farms" of vertical tanks filled with oil-laden algae that are fed by the exhaust gases from coal-fired or natural gas-fired powerplants. The resulting algae can be processed into biodiesel fuel and heating oil, and the "waste" from the processing can be processed into ethanol itself.
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- #130 of 165
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Re: show me the DATA [fireball1]
by gagrice
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May 19, 2006 (5:19 pm)
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Replying to: fireball1 (May 18, 2006 5:29 pm)
check out all the maps and stats from the U.S. Geological Survey. Agriculture, predominantly the irrigation of corn, accounts for more than 95 percent of all water use in the Midwest. That is anything BUT renewable.
Welcome to the discussion. Good point on the water. Not only are they doing a lot of irrigating of corn. They are flushing much of the fertilizers into the streams and rivers in the process. I do not see how any credible environmentalist could be in favor of ethanol in its current state of production. If they figure out a process for some less invasive crop like Switchgrass it may change the picture.
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- #131 of 165
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Re: show me the DATA [raychuang00]
by gagrice
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May 19, 2006 (5:20 pm)
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Replying to: raychuang00 (May 18, 2006 8:34 pm)
Algae to biodiesel may just be the answer. Time will tell.
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- #132 of 165
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Re: show me the DATA [gagrice]
by snakeweasel
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May 19, 2006 (5:54 pm)
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Replying to: gagrice (May 19, 2006 5:20 pm)
Good they can come over and clean out my fish tank, they can run the country for 50 years on what that tank produces 
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- #133 of 165
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Re: show me the DATA [gagrice]
by fireball1
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May 19, 2006 (10:48 pm)
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Replying to: gagrice (May 19, 2006 5:19 pm)
The groundwater problem becomes twofold as the aquifer gets drawn down. Those chemical fertilizers, as you mention, eventually get into the groundwater. Because there is less groundwater, there is less dilution and a higher degree of pollution. I am not certain how long it takes for corn fertilizer to make its way down to the groundwater -- I'm sure it depends on the porous nature of the soil (or sand, in western Nebraska) -- but we are already paying a price. Many small communities in Nebraska (population 10,000 or less) have been forced to seek new wells with clean water several miles outside of town because of the nitrate contamination. That's why some city managers in such communities are outraged by the over-irrigation and overproduction of corn, and the sales job that's going on for corn ethanol. What also is sad is the politicking. Already a Nebraska senator is running TV ads for the fall campaign: He says, "I envision Nebraska corn fields replacing Mideast oil fields." It is amazing how many people buy into that. That's the nature of the political beast -- if you say anything perceived as anti-ethanol or anti-agriculture in the Midwest, even though it may be true, you are committing political suicide. That suits the National Corn Growers, Farm Bureau, etc., just fine, even though they know (deep down inside) that the viability of corn ethanol is questionable at best. If, as I've read in places, corn has only 3-5 more years as the main fuelstuff for ethanol (thanks to farm state lobbies, politicians & subsidies), I am wondering if these dozens of corn ethanol plants can be retrofitted to accept switchgrass or other materials? If not, have we jumped into this too quickly?
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- #134 of 165
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Re: my view [mxer]
by seniorjose
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May 21, 2006 (12:19 pm)
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Replying to: mxer (Aug 17, 2005 8:17 pm)
"I'm not convinced of ethanol as a solution either. It can, however, provide some relief from total reliance on crude oil. To obtain ethanol, one must ferment corn or some other sugar-containing material. Fermentation releases CO2. The amount of CO2 released must be considered when selling ethanol as a fuel."
I believe that the resultant CO2 is captured...but the real savings is the corn or switch grass that converts naturally fixed CO2 from our environment to the Oxygen given off by al of these plants Most green plants convert CO2 to oxygen --  except for a moldy fast-food burger long forgotten under the passenger sear
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- #135 of 165
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Re: my view
by gem069
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May 21, 2006 (1:45 pm)
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Replying to: seniorjose (May 21, 2006 12:19 pm)
757Below is a list of fueling facilities that have installed E85 since issuance of our last NEVC newsletter, May 8, 2006.
The following 35 facilities are or will soon be carrying the clean burning, alternative – E85, bringing the total number of public and privately accessed E85 fueling locations to 757:
PS Energy
340 Whitehall Street SW
Atlanta
GA
East Central Iowa Cooperative (Cardtrol)
1144 Highway 63 North
Hudson
IA
Kum & Go
141 S. Jordan Creek Parkway
West Des Moines
IA
Fuel Time (Cardtrol)
426 4th Street
Mason City
IA
County Line Mart
609 East Broadway
Keota
IA
Citgo/Minuteman #14
4901 South Central Avenue
Stickney
IL
Meyer Oil Company
1505 West Main
Teutopolis
IL
Gas City #59
900 Brookforest Drive
Shorewood
IL
Mach 1 Food Shop
1701 Philo Road
Urbana
IL
Meijer Gas #129
5349 Pike Plaza
Indianapolis
IN
Crystal Flash
545 South Rangeline Road
Carmel
IN
Meijer #201
606 Greenville West Drive
Greenville
MI
Mussers Service, LLC
106 South Main Street
Nashville
MI
Pacific Pride (fleet cards)
1939 Cooper Street
Jackson
MI
MFA Oil Company - Petro-Card 24
24886 Highway 36
Bucklin
MO
Break Time Convenience Store
1405 North Bluff
Fulton
MO
Break Time Convenience Store
163 West Simon
Holts Summit
MO
Break Time Convenience Store
300 Washington
Chillicothe
MO
Break Time
1105 Main Street
Boonville
MO
MFA Oil - Petro Card 24
803 North Highway 151
Centralia
MO
Break Time
4 Business Loop 70 West C
Columbia
MO
MFA Oil Company - Petro-Card 24
1845 East 9th Street
Trenton
MO
MFA Oil Company - Petro-Card 24
1608 East Liberty
Mexico
MO
Break Time Convenience Store
1901 North Highway 763
Columbia
MO
Pit Stop
2203 Highway 70 SW
Hickory
NC
Huey's Mart
1591 N. Decatur Boulevard
Las Vegas
NV
Flamingo Stop
8615 West Flamingo
Las Vegas
NV
Vogelbilt Corp.
1200 Wellwood Avenue
West Babylon
NY
Oregon State Motor Pool
6400 N. Cutter Circle
Portland
OR
Worley & Obetz (WoGo Fueling Card)
736 Rothsville Road
Lititz
PA
Pitt Stop #42
1928 Airport Road
West Columbia
SC
Irmo C-Mart
7353 Nursery Road
Columbia
SC
Brabham Oil Company, Inc.
525 Midway Street
Bamberg
SC
Ampride Truck Plaza
200 SD Highway 44
Chancellor
SD
Pacific Pride
1980 Terminal Drive
Pasco
WA
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- #136 of 165
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Re: show me the DATA [gagrice]
by mvandergoot
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Jun 01, 2006 (4:18 am)
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Replying to: gagrice (Jul 29, 2004 7:24 am)
Hey think about the possibilities. Why not Hybrid-biodiesel?
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