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Is Ethanol good for the environment?

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#126 of 165 Re: show me the DATA [zarplex2003] by gagrice May 16, 2006 (4:25 pm)
Replying to: zarplex2003 (May 16, 2006 1:40 pm) Ethanol can continuously be reproduced as long as we have maize.   I don't think anyone is arguing that we cannot raise corn and make ethanol. The problem is the amount of fossil fuel that is used to grow the corn and distill it into ethanol. So it is only renewable until we run out of fossil fuel. If the US is so set on ethanol they need to find a better crop than corn to produce it. So far it is all talk and no production as it pertains to Switchgrass, tree stumps or pollywogs.   Currently Ethanol is just corporate welfare worse than that given to the oil companies. What is so great about that? Replies to this message: jeffyscott (May 17, 2006 6:33 am)
#127 of 165 Re: show me the DATA [gagrice] by jeffyscott May 17, 2006 (6:33 am)
Replying to: gagrice (May 16, 2006 4:25 pm) In addition to the fossil fuel used to grow it, it is infeasible to replace all or a significant portion of the oil with corn ethanol because of the amount of land required to grow enough corn to do this.   Even for more efficient crops, the land requirements are huge. One estimate here says:   As for the land required to support significant biofuel production from a dedicated energy crop, switch grass offers a basis for estimation. It grows rapidly, with an expected harvest one or two years after planting. Ignoring crop rotation, an acre under cultivation will produce five to 10 tons of switch grass annually, which in turn provides 50 to 100 gallons of ethanol per ton of biomass. Thus the land requirement needed to displace one million barrels of oil per day (about 10% of U.S. oil imports projected by 2025), is 25 million acres (or 39,000 square miles). This is roughly 3% of the crop, range and pasture land that the Department of Agriculture classifies as available in the U.S.   So, based on this, replacing all imported oil would take 30% of land.
#128 of 165 Re: show me the DATA [zarplex2003] by fireball1 May 18, 2006 (5:29 pm)
Replying to: zarplex2003 (May 16, 2006 1:40 pm) The message from the corn and ethanol lobbies that ethanol from corn is "renewable" is an absolute joke. Sure, we can grow as much corn as we want, and the energy equation might be a slight positive, but let's get real here. Corn is sucking the Ogallala Aquifer dry in the Great Plains -- check out all the maps and stats from the U.S. Geological Survey. Agriculture, predominantly the irrigation of corn, accounts for more than 95 percent of all water use in the Midwest. That is anything BUT renewable. Corn ethanol boosters also conveniently forget the amount of fossil fuels needed to (1) fertilize the corn; (2) get the corn to the ethanol plant, and (3) process the ethanol. Indirectly, ethanol gets SIX subsidies from the government -- one for overproducing the corn, one for incentives and tax breaks for building the plants, one at the gas pumps, and three others that go with its fossil fuel consumption. Ethanol backers love to point out the subsidies that go to oil, but they forget that ethanol CONTRIBUTES TO THOSE SUBSIDIES because it also uses oil and natural gas. By the way, keep an eye on the price of natural gas. The higher up it goes, the more ethanol plants will go to coal. And we all know what coal does for our air. In this scenario, making ethanol is a lose-lose proposition. Only when ethanol gets away from the destructive growing of corn will it become viable in the long term. That is apparent to everyone outside the corn lobby, ethanol lobby, Congress and some hare-brained environmentalists. Replies to this message: raychuang00 (May 18, 2006 8:34 pm) gagrice (May 19, 2006 5:20 pm) snakeweasel (May 19, 2006 5:54 pm) gagrice (May 19, 2006 5:19 pm) fireball1 (May 19, 2006 10:48 pm)
#129 of 165 Re: show me the DATA [fireball1] by raychuang00 May 18, 2006 (8:34 pm)
Replying to: fireball1 (May 18, 2006 5:29 pm) I think the best solution is to grow "farms" of vertical tanks filled with oil-laden algae that are fed by the exhaust gases from coal-fired or natural gas-fired powerplants. The resulting algae can be processed into biodiesel fuel and heating oil, and the "waste" from the processing can be processed into ethanol itself. Replies to this message: gagrice (May 19, 2006 5:20 pm) snakeweasel (May 19, 2006 5:54 pm)
#130 of 165 Re: show me the DATA [fireball1] by gagrice May 19, 2006 (5:19 pm)
Replying to: fireball1 (May 18, 2006 5:29 pm) check out all the maps and stats from the U.S. Geological Survey. Agriculture, predominantly the irrigation of corn, accounts for more than 95 percent of all water use in the Midwest. That is anything BUT renewable.   Welcome to the discussion. Good point on the water. Not only are they doing a lot of irrigating of corn. They are flushing much of the fertilizers into the streams and rivers in the process. I do not see how any credible environmentalist could be in favor of ethanol in its current state of production. If they figure out a process for some less invasive crop like Switchgrass it may change the picture. Replies to this message: fireball1 (May 19, 2006 10:48 pm)
#131 of 165 Re: show me the DATA [raychuang00] by gagrice May 19, 2006 (5:20 pm)
Replying to: raychuang00 (May 18, 2006 8:34 pm) Algae to biodiesel may just be the answer. Time will tell. Replies to this message: snakeweasel (May 19, 2006 5:54 pm)
#132 of 165 Re: show me the DATA [gagrice] by snakeweasel May 19, 2006 (5:54 pm)
Replying to: gagrice (May 19, 2006 5:20 pm) Good they can come over and clean out my fish tank, they can run the country for 50 years on what that tank produces
#133 of 165 Re: show me the DATA [gagrice] by fireball1 May 19, 2006 (10:48 pm)
Replying to: gagrice (May 19, 2006 5:19 pm) The groundwater problem becomes twofold as the aquifer gets drawn down. Those chemical fertilizers, as you mention, eventually get into the groundwater. Because there is less groundwater, there is less dilution and a higher degree of pollution. I am not certain how long it takes for corn fertilizer to make its way down to the groundwater -- I'm sure it depends on the porous nature of the soil (or sand, in western Nebraska) -- but we are already paying a price. Many small communities in Nebraska (population 10,000 or less) have been forced to seek new wells with clean water several miles outside of town because of the nitrate contamination. That's why some city managers in such communities are outraged by the over-irrigation and overproduction of corn, and the sales job that's going on for corn ethanol. What also is sad is the politicking. Already a Nebraska senator is running TV ads for the fall campaign: He says, "I envision Nebraska corn fields replacing Mideast oil fields." It is amazing how many people buy into that. That's the nature of the political beast -- if you say anything perceived as anti-ethanol or anti-agriculture in the Midwest, even though it may be true, you are committing political suicide. That suits the National Corn Growers, Farm Bureau, etc., just fine, even though they know (deep down inside) that the viability of corn ethanol is questionable at best. If, as I've read in places, corn has only 3-5 more years as the main fuelstuff for ethanol (thanks to farm state lobbies, politicians & subsidies), I am wondering if these dozens of corn ethanol plants can be retrofitted to accept switchgrass or other materials? If not, have we jumped into this too quickly?
#134 of 165 Re: my view [mxer] by seniorjose May 21, 2006 (12:19 pm)
Replying to: mxer (Aug 17, 2005 8:17 pm) "I'm not convinced of ethanol as a solution either. It can, however, provide some relief from total reliance on crude oil. To obtain ethanol, one must ferment corn or some other sugar-containing material. Fermentation releases CO2. The amount of CO2 released must be considered when selling ethanol as a fuel."   I believe that the resultant CO2 is captured...but the real savings is the corn or switch grass that converts naturally fixed CO2 from our environment to the Oxygen given off by al of these plants Most green plants convert CO2 to oxygen -- except for a moldy fast-food burger long forgotten under the passenger sear Replies to this message: gem069 (May 21, 2006 1:45 pm)
#135 of 165 Re: my view by gem069 May 21, 2006 (1:45 pm)
Replying to: seniorjose (May 21, 2006 12:19 pm) 757Below is a list of fueling facilities that have installed E85 since issuance of our last NEVC newsletter, May 8, 2006.   The following 35 facilities are or will soon be carrying the clean burning, alternative – E85, bringing the total number of public and privately accessed E85 fueling locations to 757:   PS Energy  340 Whitehall Street SW  Atlanta  GA    East Central Iowa Cooperative (Cardtrol)  1144 Highway 63 North  Hudson  IA    Kum & Go  141 S. Jordan Creek Parkway  West Des Moines  IA    Fuel Time (Cardtrol)  426 4th Street  Mason City  IA    County Line Mart  609 East Broadway  Keota  IA    Citgo/Minuteman #14  4901 South Central Avenue  Stickney  IL    Meyer Oil Company  1505 West Main  Teutopolis  IL    Gas City #59  900 Brookforest Drive  Shorewood  IL    Mach 1 Food Shop  1701 Philo Road  Urbana  IL    Meijer Gas #129  5349 Pike Plaza  Indianapolis  IN    Crystal Flash  545 South Rangeline Road  Carmel  IN    Meijer #201  606 Greenville West Drive  Greenville  MI    Mussers Service, LLC  106 South Main Street  Nashville  MI    Pacific Pride (fleet cards)  1939 Cooper Street  Jackson  MI    MFA Oil Company - Petro-Card 24  24886 Highway 36  Bucklin  MO    Break Time Convenience Store  1405 North Bluff  Fulton  MO    Break Time Convenience Store  163 West Simon  Holts Summit  MO    Break Time Convenience Store  300 Washington  Chillicothe  MO    Break Time  1105 Main Street  Boonville  MO    MFA Oil - Petro Card 24  803 North Highway 151  Centralia  MO    Break Time  4 Business Loop 70 West C  Columbia  MO    MFA Oil Company - Petro-Card 24  1845 East 9th Street  Trenton  MO    MFA Oil Company - Petro-Card 24  1608 East Liberty  Mexico  MO    Break Time Convenience Store  1901 North Highway 763  Columbia  MO    Pit Stop  2203 Highway 70 SW  Hickory  NC    Huey's Mart  1591 N. Decatur Boulevard  Las Vegas  NV    Flamingo Stop  8615 West Flamingo  Las Vegas  NV    Vogelbilt Corp.  1200 Wellwood Avenue  West Babylon  NY    Oregon State Motor Pool  6400 N. Cutter Circle  Portland  OR    Worley & Obetz (WoGo Fueling Card)  736 Rothsville Road  Lititz  PA    Pitt Stop #42  1928 Airport Road  West Columbia  SC    Irmo C-Mart  7353 Nursery Road  Columbia  SC    Brabham Oil Company, Inc.  525 Midway Street  Bamberg  SC    Ampride Truck Plaza  200 SD Highway 44  Chancellor  SD    Pacific Pride  1980 Terminal Drive  Pasco  WA

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