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Hybrid Vehicles Ethanol - E85 FlexFuel Is Ethanol good for the environment?
165 messages, Last post on Sep 24, 2008 at 5:25 AM
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Replying to: gagrice (Mar 27, 2006 11:33 am) I just stumbled onto this thread....good to hear you have been boning up on alternative fuels.... so what is the low down now on ethanol ? I have seen many GM ads in magazines touting the yellow cars and this fuel. IS it something that can provide an alternative while a permanent fuel replacement is found ? OR is it like the Prius...costing more in money & fuel upfront , and thus not a real cost effective idea ? cheers !
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Replying to: highender (Mar 30, 2006 8:33 pm) |
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Replying to: highender (Mar 30, 2006 8:33 pm)
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I'm not sure of the future of E85 and acknowledge the decline in mileage. However, I think people should at least consider the possibility that the $2.50/gal we're currently paying for gas may seem cheap a few years from now. It's quite possible we could be paying $4 or $5 per gallon gas fairly soon. Alot of it has to do with the future level of economic growth in Asia, particularly China and India. If this happens, ethanol becomes more and more viable. What I have not heard discussed on this board is the potential switch from corn to switchgrass. A study out of Auburn University in Alabama which I heard on NPR right after the State of the Union Address indicated switchgrass produces 4 gallons of ethanol for every one gallon's worth of energy used to produce it, compared to a ratio of 2.5 to 1 for corn. Given that switchgrass is native, grows well in a larger area of the country, requires far less intensive management, holds the soil better and would generally be better for the environment than corn, it has potential to become a major crop.
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Replying to: rwh (Mar 31, 2006 7:10 am) The energy balance from corn, then, is slightly positive. However, ethanol can also be derived from another source, namely, cellulosic feedstocks such as corn stover or switchgrass. In this case, the energy balance is much improved, as shown in Table 1 of this paper by McLaughlin and Walsh. Their data show that while the energy gain from corn grain is 21%, the energy gain from converting switchgrass to ethanol is 343%! The downside, of course, is that conversion technologies are not ready for primetime yet, as shown in the the USDA-DOE study mentioned above--the cost per gallon of ethanol from cellulose fermentation is about $1.50. The main worry here is that corn stover will be promoted as the cellulose source, rather than perennial grasses, and that's a big concern. Growing corn is already an environmental problem, but removing all stover (analgous to harvesting corn silage--but that's another topic!) will really leave the land open to wind and water erosion. All this adds up to the fact that using perennail grass crops, such as switchgrass, makes environment sense. More work on conversion technologies is needed, but when it is available, it will mark a substantial advance over the current corn ethanol industry. http://www.public.iastate.edu/~brummer/ag/biomass2.htm
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Replying to: gagrice (Mar 31, 2006 8:39 am) What about the acreage needed? For corn I think it works out to be something like the entire land area of the US would need to be planted with corn to generate enough ethanol...is this figure better for switchgrass? |
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Replying to: snakeweasel (Mar 31, 2006 6:14 am) sounds like we would be spending much money upfront, interms of water and other resources...and then getting less mileage out of each gallon ? That does not sound like it is a real good solution. Almost like spending money to save money? I remember once using $3 of gas to save $2 for filling the whole tank of gas...stupid of me.... 
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Replying to: highender (Mar 31, 2006 5:24 pm)
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Replying to: gagrice (Mar 31, 2006 6:11 pm) Now you can pooh-pooh all day long about how they are only the 5th most populous country in the world and how nobody drives cars down there but that doesn't hold water. They've turned off the tap. They won't be competing with China and India for energy...they will be selling it to them (we can't truck ethanol easily here but BRAZIL can seas barge it?). I will agree with gagrice that more pumps need to get out to justify the purchase of an E85 vehicle. I will also agree that the way we are creating our fuel needs to be improved, expanded and updated. You cannot tell me we cannot do it. We've been aced by a country known for Rio, beaches, thongs and rainforests. While it hurts, it should be a heads-up to a country that can put men on the moon. It's just been too easy to import the liquid gold and too much work to grow it ourselves. Then again, the third world is always ready to sell to fat & lazy americans. Cheers, Boiler
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Replying to: boilermaker2 (Apr 01, 2006 2:53 pm) While it hurts, it should be a heads-up to a country that can put men on the moon. Sounds to me like the Brazilians have 4 things up on us....  
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