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#454 of 671 SO HERE'S THE DEAL
Sep 07, 2005 (10:45 am)
It is all about dollars in and dollars out. If you drive enough to warrant the added up-front expense of a hybrid, and are lucky enough to get a vehicle that is trouble free; then go for it! We live in a free country where, right or wrong, people are allowed to making their own decisions based on the scenarios and variables that occur in their world. Just as we'll have people taking advantage of the cheaper prices on SUVs during the fuel chrisis, we'll have people thinking that they'll some how break even if they pay more than $5,000.00 over the sticker on a hybrid. It is called the whim of the free market society, and that is what has made this country's economy what it is today. I'll share with you a personal experience that began back in December 2003, when I signed a $500.00 check over to a local Toyota dealer here in Atlanta. After nearly 5 months of waiting, I was informed by the dealer that they would be reimbursing my money being they could not guarantee me delivery of the vehicle in a timely fashion. After contacting Toyota's National Customer Service Headquarters to make sure that it would not, in any way, effect my position on the wait list or the cost of the vehicle upon deliver; I was assigned a case number and told that everything would be handled in a professional fashion. I even pointed out that should those who had to wait until 2005 should be given a check for the difference between the two vehicles; to which Toyota issued checks to all of us who were waiting prior to March of 2004. I finally get a call in January of 2005 from a salesperson at the same dealership, indicating my name was nearing the top of the list. The new salesperson that replaced the old one then informed me that a $2,900.00 "Dealer Participation Fee" has now been added, and that I would be so fortunate to have the car at such a small markup. When I told this guy that I was well aware of "supply and demand", yet chose to stick to my guns on principal, he smugly replied, "There are those who are paying close to $6,000.00 over sticker." Then 'humbled' himself in the wake of my anger to offer a mere $1,900.00 markup, minus the $750.00 check Toyota issued me for the change in price between the 2004 and 2005 model. I refused, and demanded to speak with the dealership's customer service agent. Of course, he/she was not there, and I registered my complaint with Toyota's National Headquarters who simply replied, "Each dealership is a franchise, and therefore we have no impact on the final price..." Oddly enough, a month later I happened upon a 1990 Toyota Camry with 78,000 miles, and snapped it up for $3,750.00. Since then, I've done repairs in the neighborhood of $1,200.00 and figure the car will run easily (according to long-time owners here at Edmonds) up to 200(plus) thousand miles virtually trouble-free. The vehicle gets 35MPG, and costs me a little over six hundred dollars a year to insure. My initial outlay is far less than the Prius, and the proven technology and dependability of the Camry ensures me that I'll be far ahead of the game even if the hybrid got a consistent 50MPG with trouble-free maintenance. So why aren't people out there buying older Hondas and Toyotas that get a proven return on the initial investment? Has the world gone mad? No, we are currently experiencing a momentary lapse of reasoning thanks to the government doing its job by keeping us busy worrying about something stupid like the price of gas, while our troops are dying overseas so Halliburton can send their people in to milk Iraq dry. Please people, stop splitting hairs over cars and take a look at the real picture!
#455 of 671 Re: SO HERE'S THE DEAL [nicholasj]
Sep 07, 2005 (11:15 am)
I love stories from people that use common sense and SMART logic. Good luck with your Camry. I am sure it will give you several more years of good service. I also hope dealers that try to screw the public get their just dues.
Sep 07, 2005 (11:34 am)
I was worried when I came back after my last vist and saw so many posts, but you folks are doing a good job of debating without going off the deep end (Well sometimes we get close...LOL)
Just want to remind everyone to NOT let it become personal. Nothing but trouble in that direction. Thanks!
#458 of 671 What is MSRP? Get over it, that's what !!!
Sep 07, 2005 (11:55 am)
I have posted this before, but MSRP is JUST A NUMBER people !!
If a particular supply and demand opprtunity gives a BUSINESS a chance to MAKE MORE MONEY (the goal of virtually every for-profit business in the world) then who are we to begrudge them the right to make that money? No one FORCES someone to buy ANY car, at least not legally.
If those poor, overpaid fools want to pay three to five to seven thousand dollars over the "Holy Grail" MSRP number, then more power to the dealer for getting people to do that !! Remember: every car dealership EMPLOYS people and pays people, which puts more money into the economy and reduces the unemployment lines.
The good part of selling hybrids at any price is that it gets MORE HYBRIDS on the road, which means more R&D money going into the development of future and better technology, which is better for EVERY AMERICAN !! Every one !! All of us !!
Today's hybrids will lead to tomorrow's better batteries and then to hydrogen fuel cells or whatever ends up being the next HUGE advance in vehicle efficiency.
Forget the MSRP thing - it's just a "power thing" for people to feel good about themselves that they could "bargain the dealer down" which really means nothing unless you are paying cash and have your own mechanic - the car dealer makes money on every car sold, regardless of selling price - service being the major money maker.
If someone wants to "pump their chest" because they "beat" the dealer, more power to them. But it's not that major an accomplishment, because the dealers have a monopoly, and thousands of people pay more than MSRP in the long run. If you don't think it's a monopoly, call Toyota Corporate and try to order a car direct from them.
#459 of 671 Re: SO HERE'S THE DEAL [nicholasj]
Sep 07, 2005 (12:38 pm)
Although buying a new Honda or Toyota is a better choice than most other new marques due to their lower depreciation, the overall cost of ownership is always lower buying a good used car. In fact, trading in a vehicle which gets average mileage (whatever that is!) for a vehicle which returns excellent mileage is not an economic winner either. Calculate overall cost of ownership, not only operating costs.
If money is no object, the cost of fuel is superflous. Some people drive hybrids, not to save money, but to make a statement, e.g. Leonardo DiCaprio who drives a Prius. Obviously, he can afford to drive whatever he wants.
Buying used Honda's or Toyota's is a good thing - to a point. If you are looking at buying a 1 to 3 year old vehicle, you're better off buying a new Honda or Toyota due to their high resale value on the market. At our local dealer, I can buy a new 2006 Camry LE for less than what they're selling 2005 Camry LE's with 12K to 15K miles.
#460 of 671 Hybrid economics
Sep 07, 2005 (12:41 pm)
#461 of 671 Hybrid Economics
Sep 07, 2005 (12:52 pm)
Even at list price instead of some dealers rediculous addendum sticker a hybrid doesn't make economic sense. I had the "Hots" for a HAH. Drove it & loved it; but even at my mileage of 36,000 a year & $3.10 a gallon regular It's more expensive that an EX 4 cy w/leather when you consuider both the differences in mileage and initial cost. Too, simetime during the 150,000-175,000 miles I keep a car there is a chance I"d have to spring for a new battery. That would really make the decision a "No Brainer".
#462 of 671 Re: What is MSRP? Get over it, that's what !!! [larsb]
Sep 07, 2005 (1:02 pm)
Getting back to me with the choice of a 06 Corolla or 06 Hybrid, and the low mileage each year, not to mention keeping it only 3 years, is a purly personal one. I like new cars over used, and not having someone elses problems as well. I am somewhat wasteful to be honest, and I now have a SUV, and hate the gas mileage I'm getting ( Bought it because my Dad had problems getting into a lower to the ground vehicle I had before ), and would like to get the Prius for a long run. But even though I waste money from time to time, I just cannot see paying MSRP on a new Prius. If I could get the #5 options and $500 over invoice, than I would snap it up, but that's a long shot. So I'll wait just a little while longer to see if I can get a deal ( Against hope ) on a new 06 Prius. If not, I'll take the new 06 Corolla and keep it 3 years and get the hybrid corolla then, that should not be as high as the prius.