Last post on Apr 25, 2013 at 10:12 AM
You are in the Volkswagen Jetta
What is this discussion about?
Volkswagen Jetta, Biodiesel, Diesel, Sedan
#1923 of 4744 Re: 09 Jetta tdi test drive [sebring95]
Jul 17, 2008 (8:15 am)
I agree with you analogy, but I am looking at the data in the past 5 years. The difference in price between diesel and gasoline is widening every year. It is true that the value of Jetta diesel went to the roof, and we all know the reason is the conversion kit that people they buy for about $3000 to make their car run on biodiesel or vegetable oil. But even now in some part of California some of the fast food industry start charging people for that oil, then they need converted to a usable fuel. Add to that the fact that Honda is bringing the 2.2L i-cdi engine in the 2009 Accord with competitive prices, and may be Chrysler, and GM will follow the same path, since both they sell a lot of Diesel cars in Europe, this alone will drop the price of the used Jetta to certain level; and I am sure you know the game in the market is based on demand and supply. The best time to sell a used Jetta diesel is now; I have a friend that he sold his 2006 Jetta for $23800, and now he ordered the 2009 for the same price. But like everybody knows the market change, and now all the auto manufacturing Honda, VW, Mercedes, even BMW are bringing their diesel cars because they solved one of the hurdle they have to meet the EPA emission requirement. But people they are going to go for the high mileage advertised for those vehicles at first then they will realize that they are not saving that much compared to gasoline engines, especial if the gap between the two fuels keep widening. Very interesting discussion.
#1924 of 4744 Re: Homebrew Biodiesel in Tampa, FL Area [ed_grant]
Jul 17, 2008 (8:15 am)
I clearly have no evidence of this and am merely swagging under the 1st amendment rights, but perhaps that (using commercially available ULSD 2 and not that "boot legged" bio diesel "trash") was part of the "dope" deal for VW to put its diesels on the US market.
My take is the US market gives lip service to alternative fuels (aka bio diesel) but is LOATHED to put any products on the market that actually are specified to run ALTERNATIVE fuels (bio diesel. and included the various oil variants).
I also realize the discussion borders on the federal/state felony, as all of us know we are required to file the fed/state IRS/FTXB forms when volunteering to pay on road fuel taxes. (or NOT, hence Fed/State felony )
#1925 of 4744 Re: 09 Jetta tdi test drive [malmouza]
Jul 17, 2008 (8:55 am)
you will need to keep driving that car for 16 years before you get all your money back.
I just picked this as an example of the error in your post. I bought a 2005 Passat TDI in April 2005 when diesel was more than gas up in Portland Oregon. I sold it in San Diego in May of 2006 for $3000 more than I paid for it new. That point being the diesel will hold its value better than the gasser.
In San Diego today diesel is less than 45 cents difference. As many owners will attest the new Jetta TDIs are capable of a lot better mileage than the EPA estimates. I calculated that with the current price of gas in CA being $4.50 per gallon diesel would have to cost at least $7 per gallon to be less cost effective.
That leads up to the driving experience. Until you have taken both the gas version and the diesel version of the VW out on the highway you will be clueless as to the superiority of the diesel engine. If your thing is racing from stop light to stop light and don't do much highway driving. I recommend one of the little rice rockets for under $20k. They are cheap to modify and gas mileage is not a concern.
Lastly and my biggest reason for wanting another diesel is alternative fuel. Currently biodiesel is the ONLY practical alternative to fossil fuel. With the research in algae to biodiesel and Natural gas to diesel it would be good to have at least one diesel in your stable.
#1926 of 4744 Re: 09 Jetta tdi test drive [malmouza]
Jul 17, 2008 (9:14 am)
I agree, the best time to sell a used TDI is now. Which is why I'm going to wait it out. If you follow my prior posts, I'm basically on the "wait and see" bandwagon. I don't see any reason to pay a premium for a new or used one right now. I'm not an early adopoter....I don't need the latest/greatest and for now the most economical thing for me is to just keep pumping fuel into my truck. I'm only doing about 20k miles per year and even with $4/gas it's hard to justify a second vehicle, although historically I've considered it a luxury. Until I find the right vehicle, it won't make financial sense.
#1927 of 4744 Re: 09 Jetta tdi test drive [sebring95]
Jul 17, 2008 (9:20 am)
Indeed the boundaries have always been the yearly average drivers rate of 12,000 to 15,000 miles. Most discussions will probably include these metrics.
Diesels (due to the premiums) usually start to make sense from 20,000 to 25,000 miles per year, or if you have a much longer term outlook, average age of a diesel vehicle and/or both.
Of topic one reason why we bought an automatic Civic with a commute requirement of 14,300 miles. Indeed the premium for automatic door locks and cruise control were $1,200. So how many use these options with one person in full commute traffic? The 1,200 would be better spent on a diesel option.
#1928 of 4744 Re: 09 Jetta tdi test drive [gagrice]
Jul 17, 2008 (11:34 am)
I agree with what you said, but you have to understand that the market change, what make sense today wonít make sense tomorrow; one good example is the Trucks and SUVs; just three years ago they were the biggest money making for the big threes, Chrysler, GM, Ford, look at them today nobody want them, and these three companies are cutting cost right and left trying to survive this sudden change in market. And remember they had a lot of market analysis tools and experienced gurus in this field to predict these things and still they did not see it coming that fast. The point I am trying to make is things change pretty fast now in the automotive market, especially every manufacturer is trying to survive this economic crisis. Biodiesel is cheap today but everybody is jumping on the bandwagon and eventually its price will go up; look at the price of vegetable oil how high it went. One more thing, I agree with the fact that diesel is efficient fuel, and there is more BTU in one gallon of diesel than there is in 1 gallon of gasoline; but also it require more oil to make one gallon of Diesel than making a gallon of Gas, and with the low sulfur diesel requirement by the EPA, the cost is going up. Donít get me wrong, it is cheaper to make diesel than making gasoline, but the taxes, environmentalist, and oil companies donít want people to drive efficient cars; because they are protecting their revenues. And by the way, I drove diesel all my life in Europe until I came to the USA. I know all the flaw the problems and the maintenance cost for the diesel. I like it has more torque it is good for city driving, you can let your engine idle for 3 hours on ľ gallon. But my point is the premium you pay for the diesel car plus the gap between price of gas and diesel, are not playing in favor of diesel car, especially if other manufacturer are introducing their own diesel cars;; Unless the price difference between diesel engine and gasoline is only couple hundred dollars. The Jetta is a good car my wife drive one, they are reliable, except for some electrical problems because they are assembled in Mexico.
#1929 of 4744 Re: 09 Jetta tdi test drive [malmouza]
Jul 17, 2008 (12:27 pm)
I think the key is to buy a diesel vehicle when the market is soft. I think there will be a surge when they first get to the dealers. I agree that paying $3000 or more difference would not be wise. I am not personally interested in the Jetta. Though the Sportwagon seems like it might be a possibility. I will not get caught in a bidding war or pay some dealer a premium to be the first on the block for any vehicle. VW dealers would be advised to take this chance to build new relationships in the US market. VW has a bad reputation for less than reliable cars. If they act like Honda dealers, it will be hard for many buyers to accept. Our local VW dealer was great. They serviced my Passat TDI very well even though it was bought out of state. Used the right oil and charged a lot less than Toyota for service.
#1930 of 4744 TDI and dealer
Jul 17, 2008 (4:09 pm)
Over 300,000 plus population and only ONE VW dealer in the area in which I reside.
Lack of competition from other VW dealers allows the one dealer to offer terrible sales and service and still prosper......
No TDI for me unless I happen to relocate.
VW needs more dealers.
#1931 of 4744 Re: 09 Jetta tdi test drive [malmouza]
Jul 17, 2008 (5:17 pm)
Letslook at another realistic situation - mine. I drive 55,000 miles a year. 55.000divided by 29 + 1897 gl X the $3.80 I normally pay =$7200. a year.
55.000divided by 40 = 1375 gl X the $4.60 price in my area =$6325 a year. Asavings of $875./yr x the 3 years I normally keep a car =$2625. savings over the gasser.
For what it's worth I love the way VW's drive & would love to have a diesel version of the new Passat CC; but their absolutely rediculous maintenance costs drive me to the Japanese cars. Acura will have a turbo 2.2 diesel TSX next March rated 53 highway MPG; and it won't have $7-800 timing belts & $1200 hundred K service costs.
#1932 of 4744 Re: 09 Jetta tdi test drive [malmouza]
Jul 17, 2008 (5:27 pm)
I see your post already received a lot of attention but I have to add my own comments too.
I have a spreadsheet for my TDI which reflects EVERY DROP of fuel put thru it since new.(90,000+ miles now) I can attest that it is cheaper than gasoline in every way. Essentually, gasoline would have to be 1/3 more expensive than gasoline JUST TO BREAK EVEN!
I agree with you that one needs to consider many aspects of diesel ownership... but your calculations are missing some facts.
1) The VW TDIs usually get significantly MORE MPG than the EPA estamates. (If it says 40.... expect 47+)
2) Resale for a TDI often offsets any additional initial cost for the TDI engine.
3) You are JUST PLAIN WRONG when you say maintenace on a TDI is more expensive than a gasser.
The TDI engine MPG improves for at least the 1st 25,000 miles.... mine started to level off at over 60,000 miles.
*) OCI (OilChangeInterval) can be 10,000 miles or more. (ending up about the same as gasser at 5,000 miles with cheaper oil)
*) There are no sparkplugs/wires and related components to ever replace. (a BONUS over gasoline engine)
Additionaly... NONE of the (CIVIC, or the VERSA, nor the COROLLA) carry the 12-year/unlimited milage warantee that the VWs do. For me living in Vermont, this is extremely important to me becasue cars do not WEAR out... they RUST out.
BTW: I would like to hear your reasoning behind your claim that TDIs are more expensive to maintiain. Would you please tell us what led you to that conclusion?