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#525 of 606 Re: buy those hybrids early and often in 06 [michael_mattox]
Oct 14, 2005 (11:17 am)
Michael: My first source was the Wall Street Journal, they had an indepth article a few months ago when new energy bill was passed. I dont have that in front of me, and rather than pay the WSJ for their online info i googled the tax incentive for hybrid cars and found info from hybridcars.com and something called the Hybrid Center. http://go.ucsusa.org/hybridcenter/incentives.cfm
On August 8, President Bush signed a comprehensive energy bill into law. Included were new tax credits for advanced vehicle technologies ranging from $250 to $3,400 depending on the vehicle's level of fuel economy improvement. For a limited time starting in Jan 2006 a Toyota Prius will qualify for a tax credit of $3,150; a Lexus rx 400h has a credit of $2,200, as does the Highlander Hybrid. Twelve hybrids qualify for credits i picked three for an example. These credits will be available beginning on Jan 1, 2006 and will be available thru Dec 31, 2010 altho they will expire earlier for most hybrids. THE FULL TAX CREDITS will be available untill a MANUFACTURER reaches 60,000 vehicles sold.
Once a manufacturer has sold 60,000 vehicles, a one year 'phase out' will begin AFTER the next complete calendar quarter, 50% of the credit will be available for that manufacturer's hybrids in the first two quarters of the phaseout period,and 25% in the final two quarters.
I cannot find any information on how they will account for the sales date of the vehicles and what credit applies to whom, obviously only the manufacturer and the dealer will know what car is sold on what date.
The federal law is part of a comprehensive bill that mandates energy savings in federal buildings , credits for ethenal use and a whole raft of new incentives across the board. Many states are also offering rebates or tax incentives on top of the federal plan for hybrids. This is all i know right now, i hope it helps.
#526 of 606 Re: buy those hybrids early and often in 06 [katzjamr]
Oct 14, 2005 (12:20 pm)
"Remember the tax credit for hybrids in 2006 was designed to favor american and manufacturers who produce these cars in lower numbers than Toyota does. Only the first 60,000 units of a model will qualify for the credit."
Not quite true.
1. All buyers of a hybrid brand (not a model) will receive the tax credit up until the first 60,000 vehicles of that brand are sold (such as Toyotas). All Toyota hybrids will count against the 60K.
2. The tax credits continue for the full quarter year after the 60K is reached. For example, if Toytoa sold 60K hybrids in January of 2005, all Toyota hybrids delivered to a buyer by June 30th would qualify for the full tax credit.
4. The tax credit continues, but at decreased levels, for 1 year after the quarter in which the 60K was reached. For 6 months, it is 50%, thereafter 25%.
Hope this helps.
Oct 14, 2005 (1:05 pm)
Not to put too fine a point on it, stevedebi, however Toyota will sell at least 120,000 Prius hybrids alone next year and when you add in the 400h and HH sales(not to mention the new camry and tacoma truck hybrids) it is clear that not all of their customers will be allowed rebates, and some will not get the full rebate of the first 60K. This law with the 60K cap favors american producers who dont have as many hybrids to sell. Their vehicles will qualify for the largest rebate over the longest period of time simply because they sell fewer. The 'phase out' period begins at the next complete calendar quarter after 60K has been reached. It seems to me that there is a gap there in time where no tax credits may be allowed.
The bottom line is tax credits or not people will purchase the hybrid that makes the most sense for them. Ford is using warmed over Toyota technology in the Escape and it shows. Nissan is using Toyota technology in the new Altima Hybrid, im sure it wont be the latest generation product. Toyota owns 800 patents on the Hybrid Synergy Drive system and it makes it a huge problem for other mfg to start from scratch and not infringe on toyota. Probably the europeans will come closer to their own version with a diesel electric hybrid.
I own a rx 400h and am very happy. It is the first non american car i have ever owned in the nine i have purchased in my driving career. I want to support American products, i sell them for a living, however my last ford 'exploder' needed a new engine, transmission, 4x4 clutch, door locks, door handle, and tires all before 60,000 miles. Ford paid for all of it 100%, including the rental cars, but how was i ever going to trust that vehicle out of warranty?
#528 of 606 Re: exactly [katzjamr]
Oct 14, 2005 (1:12 pm)
"Not to put too fine a point on it, stevedebi, however Toyota will sell at least 120,000 Prius hybrids alone next year and when you add in the 400h and HH sales(not to mention the new camry and tacoma truck hybrids) it is clear that not all of their customers will be allowed rebates, and some will not get the full rebate of the first 60K."
Sorry, that is simply not true. If Toyota produced all 120,000 Prius before June 30, 2006, every Prius buyer would get the rebate. It is based on the calendar quarter year of purchase. Until the first 60,000 units are made, everyone gets a full credit. In the quarter year following the 60,000 units, everyone gets a full credit. Hence the full tax credit cannot last less than 1/2 of 2006 - all Hybrids sold in the first two quarters will fall under one of the two above circumstances.
Everyone purchasing any Toyota Hybrid (eligible for the rebate) in the first 1/2 of 2006 will get the full rebate.
#529 of 606 Re: exactly [katzjamr]
Oct 14, 2005 (2:00 pm)
>This law with the 60K cap favors american producers who dont have as many hybrids to sell. Their vehicles will qualify for the largest rebate over the longest period of time simply because they sell fewer.
I dont follow this logic at all for several reasons. Its why I wrote to the NYT about their article which stated the same conclusion.
A) 60000 veh is 60000 no matter how long it takes for each mfg to 'expire' their quota. It may very well take DC 10+ yrs at the rate they're going. After the initial 60K units each mfg has a one year phase out period. This is the only period where I can see a GM or Ford might find a loophole ( but so could Toyota ) to take advantage of possibly selling WAY more than 60K units; e.g. GM 'expires' its initial 60K in March of '07 but is ramped up to sell 200K units over the following 12 month phaseout period. This is pure speculation only on how a domestic mfg might have an advantage.
For sure Toyota will 'expire' its quota by Sept '06... just about the time the HSD Camry comes on line. I still dont see any advantage to the domestic mfgs.
B) Ford has a true Hybrid or two but GM has a 'wannabe' and DC (?). Those who take the tax credit on a Silverado ( buwahahahaha ) should be embarrassed. Using the tax credit on a Silverado 'wastes' some of GM's precious 60K initial quota units. The Escape and it's brothers will be used up by the end of '06 if Ford can meet the projected demand of 50-70K units.
BIG disadvantage for GM, neutra for Ford, DC (?)
C) Toyota/Honda/Ford/Nissan(?) buyers can take the credit this year in todays dollars.. not down the road in deflated dollars.
Advantage: Prius/Civic buyers ( Camry / Altima ? TBD )
Less so: Accord, RX400H, Highlander, Escape
Disadvantage: GM / DC loyalists
I have to salute your RX400H purchase. I purchased a Highlander 18 mo's ago but in retrospect should have waited - and I work at a Toyota dealership. LOL. Hopefully I will eke in under the wire next year when I replace my '00 Camry by either a Prius or HSD Camry
#530 of 606 Re: exactly [kdhspyder]
Oct 14, 2005 (6:40 pm)
kdhspyder: the highlander hybrids are in such short supply it would have been difficult for even you to get one, unless you would settle for a 2wd that is in lower demand. I imagine you got a good price on ur highlander and have a good trade in value. Highlander is being redesigned for 2006 and you would be purchasing the older style as a hybrid, its ready for some updating so dont feel bad. The HSD Camry should be much more fuel efficient than he 400h so there is an advantage in waiting.
#531 of 606 Re: Government tax incentives are to help defray costs and to encourage GREEN [midnightcowboy]
Oct 14, 2005 (8:15 pm)
Absolutely...They are getting rid of that big gas Diesel eathing road equipment...Have decided to use Illigals with shovels.
When mass transet leaves congested roads because they eat up the money for roads and nobody rides mass transet except in the Big eastern cities....It does contribute to Dirty Air and excess fuel usage as people sit on freeways waiting to get moving at 15 MPH.
I am here for you....
#532 of 606 Re: Do the math. If a hybrid still cost more, there are other reasons. [gearhead4]
Oct 14, 2005 (8:19 pm)
Nice post but you missed one...
If you do a lot of your driving in city...You will not get 40MPG in that Civic ..Stop and go kill the milage of all gas only engines...My guess is the civic would drop down to between 20-25 in city.
#533 of 606 That's a bit rude...
Oct 14, 2005 (9:11 pm)
Why not allow vehicles that get 45mpg or better to also qualify(TDI/Fit/possible others?) What would happen if a gasoline vehicle came out that got 80mpg??
#534 of 606 Re: That's a bit rude... [plekto]
Oct 15, 2005 (6:45 am)
> Why not allow vehicles that get 45mpg or better to also qualify (TDI/Fit/possible others?)
Any vehicle that achieves *BOTH* a minimum of 45 MPG and SULEV could qualify.