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Jetta TDI vs. Civic Hybrid - READ ONLY

457 messages,  Last post on Jan 20, 2005 at 10:19 AM

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What is this discussion about? Volkswagen Jetta, Honda Civic, Diesel, Hybrid Cars, Wagon

Messages Page 44 of 46

#428 of 457 Re: OH yes for sure the Hybrids are not taking [gagrice] by misterme

Jan 19, 2005 (9:04 pm)

Replying to: gagrice (Jan 19, 2005 7:55 pm)
...Which begs the question of how many diesel autos have crossed the million mile mark, and how many without major problems along the way?
 
I've never heard of anyone keeping their automobile for even 400K miles.
I knew someone who's Toyota lasted 350miles and he still drove it.
I rode in it only once and not again, due to excessive suspension slop it was scary.
 
How long would it take to rack up a million on a personal auto? 50 years?
 
May I venture to suggest most people replace their auto in 3-7 years? Some people hold out for 10 years, me included. It seems that 7-10 years is the magic time for diesel autos to start puffin soot.

#429 of 457 Re: OH yes for sure the Hybrids are not taking [misterme] by ruking1

Jan 19, 2005 (9:11 pm)

Replying to: misterme (Jan 19, 2005 9:04 pm)
"May I venture to suggest most people replace their auto in 3-7 years? Some people hold out for 10 years, me included. It seems that 7-10 years is the magic time for diesel autos to start puffin soot. "
 
You can do a goggle (don't know really why I did this) but I looked at auto salvage industry statistics: that cars are kept an average of 8.5 years and the average salvage per year is something like 8%.
 
I will let you know in 5 to 8 years about the "puffin soot"

#430 of 457 Re: OH yes for sure the Hybrids are not taking [misterme] by gagrice

Jan 19, 2005 (9:50 pm)

Replying to: misterme (Jan 19, 2005 9:04 pm)
May I venture to suggest most people replace their auto in 3-7 years?
 
I used to be one that traded every 3-4 years. I finally grew up and realized how much money I was throwing down the toilet. My wife's two cars are going on 16 years old and both run fine. They are low mileage and maintained properly.
 
...Which begs the question of how many diesel autos have crossed the million mile mark, and how many without major problems along the way?
 
A couple years ago I was researching Mercedes diesels and I ran across a company that buys used MB 300D automobiles for their sales staff. The owner buys them with 150-200k miles at a very good price. He claims many of them went over a million miles before being salvaged out for parts. Try that with any Japanese car. I had a friend with a Nissan PU that had 250k miles and still ran OK. It was very rusted and the upholstery was about gone.

#431 of 457 by ruking1

Jan 19, 2005 (10:29 pm)

Yeah, actually as I was saying in another post, for example some of the high quality is actually hidden. The VW Jetta for example has a 12 year rust guarantee vs a Honda's of 5 years. So that would beg the question, if the Honda car is kept for only 3-5 years, who cares? I have never seen any thread where the Honda owner complains that his sheet metal is not made of galvanized steel, like the VW, for example.
 
As other folks have posted they treat the Honda Civic as a 3-5 year time horizon, i.e., "throw away type item"
 
To buy a used average older Japanese car with 150-250,000 miles would probably not be a wise move for a mobile sales staff. Whereas it probably works with the older Mercedes'
 
So for me with a goal of 500,000 to 1,000,000 miles for planning purposes, the VW 12 year rust through is an interesting indicator. Right away I know with my consumption level, for planning puposes it is good to go for at least 350,000 miles.
 
While I have kept Japanese SUV's for app 250,000 miles and 14 years, I did have to pay extra attention to the rust issue to make sure it would go the distance. The other thing is that the Toyota Landcruiser had a much heavier gauge sheet metal than other Toyota vehicles.

#432 of 457 Re: OH yes for sure the Hybrids are not taking [gagrice] by misterme

Jan 19, 2005 (10:54 pm)

Replying to: gagrice (Jan 19, 2005 9:50 pm)
You're right about throwing money away by replacing autos after only a few years.
 
But I'm not sure about "a company" owner "a couple of years ago" who "claims" over a "million miles".
I'm not doubting you, only the undocumented reference as hear-say.
 
"Try that with any Japanese car"
My friend's Toyota lasted +350 miles and ran good enough to get down the road, but I wouldn't ride in it again.

#433 of 457 Only overly stubborn people go for high miles. by larsb

Jan 20, 2005 (7:22 am)

"How long would it take to rack up a million on a personal auto? 50 years?"-end quote
 
A very long time. Even if you drove for a living and put 200 miles PER DAY, that's only 73,000 miles a year. That's 13.7 years to get 1 million miles. Driving normally (about 20K a year) would take 50 years.
 
I put 263,000 miles on a "gas engine Japanese" 1980 Nissan 200SX in about 8 years, an average of about 33K per year. It had 323,000 miles on it when I junked it. The driveshaft was going out, and I had replaced the radiator and the clutch, but other than that, it was mecahnically sound.
 
Diesel engines are a better design for extremely high miles over the life of the engine, but that does not make them the only type of engines that can perform such feats.

#434 of 457 Re: OH yes for sure the Hybrids are not taking [gagrice] by john500

Jan 20, 2005 (8:14 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Jan 19, 2005 7:55 pm)
Is there data from Europe that suggests converting to low sulfur diesel will reduce the particle formation (soot)? I thought that low sulfur fuel was implemented strictly to reduce acid rain formation after sulfur comustion (S -> SO3 + water -> sulfuric acid) and that the diesel sparkless ignition (incomplete combustion) was responsible for soot formation.

#435 of 457 Re: Only overly stubborn people go for high miles. [larsb] by gagrice

Jan 20, 2005 (8:23 am)

Replying to: larsb (Jan 20, 2005 7:22 am)
I put 263,000 miles on a "gas engine Japanese" 1980 Nissan 200SX in about 8 years
 
You, myself and others got real good service from the early model Datsun/Nissan cars. Unlike my 1978 Honda Accord. Heating problems destroyed the engine at 69k miles. It was a pile of rust and problems when I traded it in 1985. What is kind of ironic is I tried buying a diesel VW when I ended up with the Honda. There were waiting lists for at least a year for the diesel Rabbit & Dasher. I took a chance on the Honda. I bought it at a Honda motorcycle shop. No Honda car dealers in MN.
 
Now move up to the present. You are telling me that Honda is more reliable historically than the VW. I just did a quick check of cars for sale on eBay. There are 191 VW vehicles for sale built prior to 1978. You know how many Honda's for sale built prior to 1978? One 1969 model 600 with 40,916 miles on it. The rest of the old Honda's are rust or crushed. When you talk of reliability and longevity. Honda does Not have a great history, other than a blip the last 10 years. And 2004 was not a great year for Honda with the problems that are coming out with the 2001-2004 transmissions. I will never put a million miles on a car. I want a car that will run good at 15 years old with under 100k miles on it. Heat is the worst thing for electronics. I don't want a lot of electronics that age sitting in the sun day in and day out. Then just when I need the car some sensor keeps it from starting. I think that lapdogman is experiencing problems with his HCH as a result of heat cooking some widget in the IMA system that is giving him and the dealer fits. I feel for the dealers also. They are stuck trying to fix these odd ball cars that the manufacturers dump on them. Probably send a tech to an 8 hour class and expect them to understand the whole complex system. For long term reliability simple is best.

#436 of 457 Keeping cars that long is just NOT the NORM. by larsb

Jan 20, 2005 (8:29 am)

Back to the previously stated average of 8.5 years per car. People dont WANT TO BUY 197x cars.
 
The reason all those old VWs are for sale on E-Bay (a TERRIBLE AWFUL way to buy a car) is that "nobody wants to buy them !!!!"
 
191 vehicles built prior to 1978 is great, if you want an old beatup car that will require you to perform repairs or pay to repair every single defect that the car will have. Most people just dont want to deal with that stuff !!
 
It's not my opinion that most people just DO NOT keep their cars for that long - its a fact. A car is not a long-term investment, it is a short-term CONSUMABLE which is used and then discarded.
 
Reliability and Longevity are DEFINITELY two DIFFERENT animals. You can have "longevity" FOREVER as long as you are willing to deal with the RELIABILITY PROBLEMS which will require you to repair the car again and again and again and again and again ad infinitum.
 
No car built before 1978 is going to be pleasant to own and drive as a commuter car, and it is not going to stay out of disrepair.

#437 of 457 Re: Only overly stubborn people go for high miles. [larsb] by ruking1

Jan 20, 2005 (8:42 am)

Replying to: larsb (Jan 20, 2005 7:22 am)
This title is interesting in that it is not necessarily true, or are you refering to yourself when you kept your Nissan 200SX for 323,000 miles? I am getting the feeling by your title, that you like to pour gasoline on fires to put them out.
 
I also think that you are ignoring the massive depreciation that occurs when you buy a new car and also realize when you sell a used car. Or at least you don't make mention of it. There are other infrastructure costs, but that might be a whole other topic of discussion.
 
If your Nissan 200SX was mechanically sound, except for the components you mentioned, and other than the fact that you were probably bored and tired of it; (yes money to buy another vehicle, does give one the luxury to be indolent)why did you not just replace those parts? Six hundred dollars (or whatever) is certainly far less money time and committment than 20,000 dollars for a new Honda Civic hybrid.
 
So to close, you are the only one making the case that the diesel engine is not ..."the only type of engines that can perform such feats".

Messages Page 44 of 46

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