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Volkswagen Jetta, Honda Civic, Diesel, Hybrid Cars, Wagon
#364 of 457 Civic is VASTLY better than the Jetta TDI.
Jan 18, 2005 (3:28 pm)
quote Gagrice-"I think you probably believe that. I am sure others share your belief. I for one do not."-end quote
It's not a BELIEF, its a FACT. It's not an opinion, it's based on years of watching reviews and keeping up with car information.
Name me ONE SINGLE PUBLISHED DOCUMENT that shows the Jetta TDI is more reliable than the Civic, and I will bow to your superior knowledge.
( There will be no naming, because there is NOT ONE. )
And anyone who disputes JD Power and Consumer Reports because of "bias" or any other nonsense is just not dealing in reality. That data is compiled from REAL OWNERS with REAL PROBLEMS with CARS THEY OWN.
How can that be biased, or incorrect, in any way?
This 2003 study, which measures problems reported by original owners of 2000 model-year vehicles at three years of ownership:
Brand Problems Per 100
Another, at the end of a 2005 Jetta review: "Competition in the subcompact class, the Honda Civic continues to be the car to beat with a wide range of bodystyles, engines, and equipment. Ford's Focus is also a Best Buy, and though it doesn't offer the refinement of the Civic, it doesn't cost as much either."
"Significant engine problems" in 1999-2001 Jettas according to MSN Autos.
The list goes ON and ON.
#365 of 457 Re: Civic is VASTLY better than the Jetta TDI. [larsb]
Jan 18, 2005 (4:08 pm)
it's based on years of watching reviews
Ok here are some figures that are easy for you to check out. This is for year 2003 as you requested. There are 73 reviews of Jetta TDI cars. The overall average is 9.1. There are 33 reviews for the Civic Hybrid with an average of 9.0. One of the things overlooked in this debate is the fact that the TDIs are made in Germany. The gas versions are made elsewhere. If you read the reviews you will find about the same amount of little problems with the HCH as the Jetta TDI. What you won't see much of is people driving the HCH that claim it is the most fun they have had driving a car. Many will say that about the Jetta TDI. As you have shown with your printout you can make statistics say what you want them to say. It is more difficult to get actual owners to subvert the truth. They call them as they see them.
The only conclusion that can be drawn from this research is that 2003 Jetta TDI owners are much happier with their purchase than 2003 HCH owners.
Review: I am happy with the vehicle. But, when I was exploring which one of my cars to sell, I was extremely disappointed in the resale value.
Review: I am just a little disappointed in the MPG as my Civic Hybrid is only averaging about 40.9 (calculated). I purchase the car new in 06/2002 and now have 33,400 miles on the car.
Review: I bought this car thinking I could save a bit of money with it's great fuel economy. However, I found out later that every 10,000 miles it needs a $100.00 maintenance fee with an expensive oil change in between. Gone are my hypothetical savings. Not worth what I expected to get out of it.
Review: After waiting for almost 4 months it finally arrived last December. 13000 m on the o. now. Getting 53-56 miles per gallon.
Review: Other than having the AC not work after delivery in March this Car has been flawless just like my 2000 which I still own.The perfect car for someone that spends a lot of time on the road and wants to do it in a comfortable and cost efficient matter.My 2000 Sdn.has 120,000 miles on it and my 2003 Wgn. has 4,000 miles on it. What more can I say.The Jetta is the most underrated Car.
Review: I love my Jetta! The Jetta is fun to drive, has excellent fuel economy, (44- 51 mpg, up to 700 miles/tank) is good looking, and reliable. I have personally driven this vehicle about 5000 miles, and I am impressed with the precision in the steering, along with the overall maneuverability.
Review: I LOVE my TDI wagon! It is zippy and gets 50 mpg. I have never had a mechanical problem with it. We use biodiesel fuel and reduce our emissions considerably, making it an environmentally sound choice. I feel very safe driving it with the extra airbags and safety features. Would buy it again in an instant and intend to keep it for years to come.
Review: I love this car!!! It is so fun and nice to drive comfortable for 5 min or 5 hours!! I Love to fuel mileage, 42 to 53 mpg! Great handling on back roads and highway. Quite interior.Great radio sound. Never seems to run out of power and It just looks great. I really love my car in case you can't tell.
Read the rest for your self you will see that JD powers and CR have missed the mark. Who pays them for all that fancy testing and statistics anyway? Or are they doing it for fun?
#366 of 457 Who decreed that reliable=better
Jan 18, 2005 (4:13 pm)
Anyone that thinks reliable=better has a very narrow view of what a vehicle should deliver to its owner. And PLEASE do not confuse quality with reliable. (VW is obviously better quality than most Asian vehicles... If one cannot see that, then they have littl concept materials and workmanship)
All vehicles have their problems and I agree that VW does not do as well as Honda at 'covering up' perceved issues. A dealer that goes out of his way to willingly fix any and all complaints makes the car SEEM better. Most VW dealers do not tend to be this willing thus VWs suffer the concequences when the pollsters show up. I know, I have owned both Honda and VW.
For me, reliability is less important than a rust-free body for at least 10 years. VW has Honda beat hands-down at this contest. Plus the TDI has a 600,000 mile life expectancy while the batteries in a hybred are considerd HAZZARDOUS WASTE and will never last even 200,000 miles.
The TDI can travel at highways speeds for hours on end while still delivering about 55 MPG. Try that with a hybred.
I receintly retruned from a 80 hour trip from Vermont-to-Colorado-and-back where the engine never had a chance to cool down. We rotated thru 3 drivers for over 4000 miles. If I owned a Hybred, I would have had to rent a car because it would have been a cruel trip for all 4 passengers in a hybred.
The TDI is a REAL CAR and the hybred is a toy which will be out of vogue in a few years.
Who would want to purchase a used hybred with the spector of replacing the expensive batteries and pay to get rid of the hazzardous waste? On the other hand, TDIs are in extremely high demand and maintain their value because they last and last. (Both the engine and the body)
Jan 18, 2005 (4:14 pm)
I can tell you for sure that neither JD Powers nor Consumer Reports have any room for "fun"
#368 of 457 Re: Who decreed that reliable=better [bpeebles]
Jan 18, 2005 (4:28 pm)
Who would want to purchase a used hybrid with the spector of replacing the expensive batteries and pay to get rid of the hazardous waste? On the other hand, TDIs are in extremely high demand and maintain their value because they last and last. (Both the engine and the body)
That is the kind of testimonial that trumps all the figures that CR and JD Powers put out. I think hybrid owners that are selling right now are finding out just how fast they lose their value. I would love to see figures on used Hybrids that have ACTUALLY sold and the price paid. I tracked a few and most did not bring close to what was asked. Anyone have a site that tracks the selling price of used vehicles?
#369 of 457 Re: Civic is VASTLY better than the Jetta TDI. [gagrice]
Jan 18, 2005 (9:09 pm)
Reviews work both ways.
Here are a few I've found contrary:
"I traded in my 2003 Volkswagen Golf diesel (42/49 mpg) for a 2005 Civic Hybrid. I will miss my Golf but will not miss smelly, smokey, less eco-friendly diesel fuel and multiple expensive trips to the dealer for all sorts of issues. Let's put it this way... I could have replaced Minute Made as the top lemonade producer in the world.
There is absolutely nothing I am unimpressed with. Quite the opposite, from the beautiful color to the automatic A/C, I love everything about this car. Acceleration is almost idenitical to my Golf and EPA fuel economy ratings are better! Well you guys already knew all that...Proud to be a Civic Hybrid owner!
As for VW, I am mostly disappointed with the service I recieved from ALL dealers in this area, and VW of America. It was abysmal. Routine maintenance is much more expensive than the Honda. They took weeks to make warranty repairs. I also had a couple out-of-warranty repairs that cost me a bundle. It was just time to make the trade... glad I did!"
"I can HIGHLY recommend the HCH. After 17K miles and 9 months, I'm averaging 47 MPG and just love this car. It's a kick to drive, very very deceptively fast (no auto tranny shift, just smooth acceleration). Very comfortable on long trips (3200 miles total to and from the Oregon Coast). I love the styling. Love my HCH!"
"Pros: Excellent car. This is my second HCH. My first is a 2003. Traded my VW Passat in for this car. Definitely will save me money in gas. Also, My state has a 3000 tax credit on the vehicle!!!
Cons: NOthing yet
Overall Review: Have bought again, and will trade my 2003 in on a 2006"
-MSN dot com
"Over 30,000 miles on my HCH since buying new in April. I commute 200 miles a day, so I reap the benefits of HALF my monthly gasoline bill!
Great little car. I've driven cross country with my 2 teen kids with no complaints. So far, no problems(it's a Honda, afterall). I easily keep up with traffic 75mph, and it has good passing ability."
Jetta TDI Reviews
"A disaster of a car. Problems have included: new clutch, discharging batteries, coolant lossesand most distastrously, wiring loom burnt out. Do nt buy a VW.
Completely unreliable with poor service and exorbitant prices at VW main dealers"
"Nice power with lots of compliments. Reliability was a HUGE problem. only owned it for a year and a half. in the shop every 2 months, when they finally penciled me in to their already hectic schedule. radio failed twice. i had to drive around without a radio for months at a time. engine failed twice. they never called me back for the second installation of the engine coils. etc, etc, etc. service sucked big time, probably due to the fact that so many jetta's and golf's are breaking down all the time."
i gave up and traded in for a Honda.
I bought my TDI about a Year and a half ago. Imagine my dismay when only 6 days after purchasing the car the brake light swith went out and I was left stranded with no way to get to work. So of course I called VW Roadside Service only to be informed that there was nothing they could do for me.
The guy that towed my car told me it was his third VW that week with the exact same problem.
Since then it has happened twice more. When I contacted VW Customer Service about this they told me that they had never heard of the problem. My friend has a '03 Jetta TDI and this same problem had occurred on her vehicle 5 times!! Finally they admitted that it was a problem. I have called customer service each time this has happened, each time I'm told that since I'm out of warranty I'm "basically screwed," yes, exact words. Now my right turn signal continuously burns out, I've had it replaced 3 times, my middle breaklight only works sometimes, I run out of windshield washer fluid about once every 2 weeks from a mysterious leak that no one can find, my airbag light has been on since about 3 months after purchasing, my cruise control doesn't even turn on let alone function, my heated mirrors only work when they want to, and the crappy Continental Tires it came with all ended up being defective and had to be replaced a few months ago. Even the VW emblem fell off!!!! I thought I would feel so proud driving a Volkswagen, and to some degree I do, but having to bum rides because the thing is in the shop again and again, it gets really embarassing and it's hard to feel proud of it when everyone knows your car is just a breakdown waiting to happen. I hate to say that I'll never own another Jetta TDI or any Volkswagen, but at the rate this is going a Honda doesn't sound so dull.
Jetta TDI problems are not insignificant.
#370 of 457 Re: Who decreed that reliable=better [bpeebles]
Jan 18, 2005 (10:05 pm)
Refer to my last post, can you find any similar serious problems with an HCH?
"Anyone that thinks reliable=better has a very narrow view of what a vehicle should deliver to its owner"
A reliable car is indeed better than an unreliable one.
"the batteries in a hybred are considerd HAZZARDOUS WASTE and will never last even 200,000 miles"
Nimh batteries are not hazardous waste and can be discarded in a landfill...but much better to recycle them.
Hybrid batteries have exceeded 200K miles, according to taxi cab drivers who drive them.
"The TDI can travel at highways speeds for hours on end while still delivering about 55 MPG. Try that with a hybred"
Hours on end means nothing. My average MPG last year is over 58MPG.
"it would have been a cruel trip for all 4 passengers in a hybred"
Not sure what you mean. If I were to drive 80 hours straight with over 2 passengers I'd take the van, even if I had a TDI.
"The TDI is a REAL CAR and the hybred is a toy which will be out of vogue in a few years"
Not sure where you sources are.
New hybrid models are emerging, especially lately.
"Who would want to purchase a used hybred with the spector of replacing the expensive batteries and pay to get rid of the hazzardous waste?"
Once again, they are not haxardous waste.
Perhaps you are referring to the battery in your VW?
#371 of 457 Re: Civic is VASTLY better than the Jetta TDI. [misterme]
Jan 19, 2005 (5:48 am)
I did not look further than Edmund's. Here is a good testimonial for Honda reliability. Don't buy an HCH unless you live close to a good dealer.
I just purchased a new 2004 with 157 miles on it. I drive 64 miles each way to work from a river ranch 1 1/2 miles to a two lane highway along the river through hills. At about 600 miles I started seeing the red battery light come on during the first half hour, but not before 10 minutes into the trip, so vehicle was completely warm. I drive in the dark and window defrost and high beams are on. I have to stop to open and close a gate the first 500 yds. I first noticed the light when entering the highway. It stays on a second or two and then did not come on after that. The dealer told me it is a problem, but he can't find the problem. This concerns me, because the warranty will last me only 1 year on the car and 2.5 years on the IMA. After that I am paying for that time to look for the problem. I have a 100 mile round trip to the nearest Service facility. I am not happy with this car for this reason alone. I feel the cost of repairs will outweigh any fuel savings in the future. Anybody else experience similar problems?
You got that right mauto. I wish I could have read your message before I purchased mine. To all those who think Honda will do the right thing, think again. They are putting me through hell.
lapdogman, "Honda Civic Hybrid" #962, 19 Nov 2004 2:59 pm
lapdogman, "Honda Civic Hybrid" #976, 28 Nov 2004 6:14 pm
Jan 19, 2005 (6:36 am)
That's going to be an issue regardless of what vehicle one purchases. If anything goes wrong and you live 100+ miles from the nearest service center, it's a major hassle. All cars have problems.
Also, no where in that anecdote does the member state that he wishes he'd purchased a Jetta TDI instead - for all we know, he could live miles from any shop!
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#373 of 457 My car is bad vs My car is good will not work
Jan 19, 2005 (7:42 am)
quote Gagrice-"Don't buy an HCH unless you live close to a good dealer."-end quote
I hope Gary does not believe that to be true ONLY for the HCH. ANY CAR BUILT TODAY can have a problem that requires a dealer. ALL MODERN CARS are technology laden and require special care - this is not a HYBRID phenomenon NOR is it NEW.
OK, here's the problem with the "my car is great" and "my car sucks" testimonial comparisons:
That sort of thing can be found ABOUT ANY CAR BUILT IN THE RECENT HISTORY OF MAN.
There are ALWAYS owners who are upset and feel robbed, and there are always owners who think their car is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Conclusions CANNOT BE DRAWN from INDIVIDUAL CASES.
As you have shown on this thread in the last few posts, ANYONE can find GOOD things about a car, and ANYONE can find BAD things about that same car.
I repeat: Conclusions may not be drawn from these individual cases. If so, a person who reads a BAD REVIEW would elminate that car. Then if they were shown a GOOD REVIEW, they would again want to buy the car. You see how that cannot work to draw proper conclusions?
*THAT IS WHY THERE ARE AGENCIES LIKE Consumer Reports and JD Power WHO DO VAST AMOUNTS OF DATA COLLECTION AND PRESENT IT FOR OUR CONSUMPTION.*
And By gosh, WHO CARES who is paying them? They are not LYING about the cars !! They are reporting ACTUAL OWNER PROBLEMS and basing ratings on those problems. IT'S NOT GUESSING - IT'S NOT ESTIMATION - IT'S FACT, based on REAL OWNERS with REAL PROBLEMS.
You take 10,000 owner reports and you base conclusions on the data. That's normal scientific method.
So sure, we can all find bad HCH complaints and a lot MORE bad Jetta TDI complaints on the web. But that really tells us NOTHING that can be used to draw a conclusion.
What CAN be used to draw a logical conclusion is a compilation of reports from THOUSANDS of owners. That's what CR and JDP give us. Since they use the largest statistical base, THEY Are the ones whose data can be trusted.