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The Great Hybrid Battery Debate - READ ONLY

669 messages,  Last post on Apr 06, 2009 at 3:32 PM

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Messages Page 66 of 67

#650 of 669 Re: Carried over [gagrice] by larsb

Jan 09, 2009 (10:05 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Jan 09, 2009 9:54 am)
Did you really miss out on all the battery management techniques that the carmakers use to preserve the life of the battery?
 
Toyota Prius II Battery Pack
 
Battery Pack Thermal Management
 
"The purpose of a battery thermal management system is to keep the batteries operating within a desirable temperature range; prevent the batteries from exceeding a high temperature limit that can damage the batteries and/or reduce life; and maintain battery temperature variations to low levels to prevent highly imbalanced batteries. Pack imbalances can reduce performance and can also damage the battery and/or reduce life. Thermal management of the battery pack is typically accomplished with the combination of two approaches. First, a cooling/heating system is designed to extract/supply heat to the battery pack. Second, the battery controller adjusts the vehicle’s use of the battery pack based on the conditions in the batteries."
 
These systems are nothing like the battery systems in cell phones, laptop computers or even Segways.
 
'Yota would not warranty them for 10 years/100K miles if they were not confident that the batteries would last that long.
 
Here is a PDF that talks about the Li-ion batteries in the test Prius:
 
Read This All Ye Who Doubt Li-ion
 
Here is info on how the Tesla system will avoid "early" battery failures

#651 of 669 Re: Carried over [larsb] by gagrice

Jan 09, 2009 (12:14 pm)

Replying to: larsb (Jan 09, 2009 10:05 am)
'Yota would not warranty them for 10 years/100K miles if they were not confident that the batteries would last that long.
 
They would not warranty them for 10 years and 100k miles were they not forced to do it by the EPA and CARB. And in the CARB states it is 10 years 150k miles.
 
Reading about a battery and it performing valiantly for 10 years is not the same thing. We shall see how the auto companies deal with the 10 year warranty on the Li-Ion batteries. I would consider that a safe bet as I do with all the hybrids. Most people are not keeping cars 10 years. I just do not see any hybrid that would work for me on the market. So it is a non starter issue.

#652 of 669 Li-Ion vs NiMh by Inventor

Jan 09, 2009 (2:51 pm)

Is Chevron/Texaco holding the NiMh (large format) battery hostage? To suppress the EV in america? To hold the price of oil high? Did they conspire with GM (who sold contol of the patent for nimh to Texaco in last part of 90's) ? Was GM so frantically afraid of losing the gas car parts business because they make more on parts than on the new car sales ( similar to the inkjet printer scam in which they almost give you the printer because they know you have buy expensive ink forever more)? OUR EVIDENCE IS BELOW:
 
Our small one time admittedly test with a small Li-Ion told us to stay away from them as they can't take the beating for very long . Also MIT was hyping there trailblazing drive across country using Li-Ion (hundreds of small ones soldered together).. I think they got as far as illinois before quitting. Basically you might remember that Ni-Mh was used in the EV1 and witnesses (users who leased it) say it went 100 to 130 miles at about 70mph. Toyota Rav4 EV's that survived the toyota recall *(some courts ordered toyota to sell the leased Ev's to the leasers ) are still on the road with the same nimh batteries. Also virtually every Hybrid is using NiMH , and why? Obviously the H car was hyped to distract us from the already great Ev's that were crushed by GM. Same for BioGas, etc. Notice how every year they keep saying " Next Year, the volt ev, phev's, blah blah blah, " Like a broken record and they have been doing that for 10 years!
    Its all a scam,, the biggest joke is that now GM and the others are getting Billions more when in fact they caused this whole economic mess, yes economies soar when energy (oil) is cheap).

#653 of 669 Gen 1 Prius batteries are failing in good numbers. by gagrice

Jan 15, 2009 (7:17 pm)

This is from a Hybrid specialty repair shop in San Francisco that replaces a lot of Prius batteries.
 
Based on experience within our walls and in discussion with technicians across the country, we can fairly call Gen 1 Prius battery failures “common” and even “predictable.” The youngest we’ve seen served 130,000 miles, some make it past 200,000 miles. Overall we’ve found 150,000 miles a reasonable expectation of how long the packs will last.
 
What the car needs is a new high voltage battery. There are three potential approaches:
 
1.) Replace the battery with a new one from Toyota
 
Despite prevailing rumor, new battery packs from Toyota are not unreasonably expensive. While they are a significant financial investment, they can be expected to last as long as originals, as they are brand new and OE grade.
 
Given increasing number of Gen 1 battery failures, OE replacement packs are often backordered. Expect to wait 10-14 business days for delivery from Japan.
 
Installation: $600
New Battery Pack: $2,499
Tax: $212.42
 
Total: $3,311.42
 
http://lusciousgarage.com/index.php/blog/gen_1_prius_battery_failure/
 
This shop works on hybrids that are out of warranty. So they will have no solid figures on warranty battery replacements. I would say Toyota did their engineering well to have the batteries last the limits of the warranty.

#654 of 669 Re: Gen 1 Prius batteries are failing in good numbers. [gagrice] by larsb

Jan 16, 2009 (7:06 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Jan 15, 2009 7:17 pm)
And they did even BETTER on the second gen Prius battery:
 
Second generation Prius batteries are similar to the Gen 1’s design but chemically much improved; we have never seen a Gen 2 pack failure in our shop (though we have many cars with mileage exceeding 300k) and have only heard of a few isolated cases from dealer techs across the country. (These failures have been blamed on contamination during manufacturing and show up early in the car’s life.) To be fair, the Gen 2’s battery control software is also improved, which also accounts for extended pack life.
 
Gen 2 Prius are far more common and used parts are much easier to obtain. The Gen 2’s modules are the same individual voltage (7.2) but fewer in overall number (28, for a nominal voltage to 201.6), so it takes two Gen 2 packs to build one replacement for the Gen 1. This also takes more labor. But the good news is that these packs can be purchased used for much less than the Gen 1’s and can also be expected to last as long as new ones, if not longer. (Pic of Carolyn working on a Gen 2 pack)
 
You can even replace Gen 1 battery modules with Gen 2 battery modules.
 
That's very cool.

#655 of 669 question by Inventor

Jan 16, 2009 (9:40 am)

Could gen 2 packs be used to power regular all electric ev? thanks

#656 of 669 Re: question [Inventor] by gagrice

Jan 16, 2009 (11:01 pm)

Replying to: Inventor (Jan 16, 2009 9:40 am)
There are much less expensive options. The battery in the Prius is about 90 lbs and may be good for 2 miles at most. You would need at least 10 to get you very far. The old Toyota RAV4 had 900 lbs of NiMH batteries and the cost was over $20k to replace.

#657 of 669 Zap battery replacement? by Inventor

Jan 17, 2009 (11:12 am)

Tell me the less $$ options , thanks.
    
     We found that that some ev cars like Zap Xebra Pk for instance , can go 25 miles (albeit at 45- mph) on just 6 high capacity 114amphour lead acid batteries. The prius 04+ packs have really just 28 modules weighing 1.04 kg each =~64lbs so 6 of them would 384 lbs. We were thinking that 6 packs could be used to replace the zap batteries and could double the mileage? What say you?
   FYI: High Capacity lead acids weigh about the same , and are a little less volume than prius batteries. The power in the 28 modules is slightly less at 104 amphours (7.2v x 6.5 ah x 28 = 1.32 kwhrs vs 12v x 114ah = 1.368kwhrs). Obviously the prius batteries lifetime is much greater being NiMh which is the only advantage / value in them. (The ev1 and rav4 ev nimh large format batteries are a differnent animal with much higher power density than prius prismatic types).

#658 of 669 Correction; not double just replace for same miles by Inventor

Jan 17, 2009 (11:13 am)

oops. mean to say replace only for same 25 miles range.

#659 of 669 Re: Zap battery replacement? [Inventor] by gagrice

Jan 17, 2009 (11:55 am)

Replying to: Inventor (Jan 17, 2009 11:12 am)
A couple things to consider. The Prius battery is about $2500. Toyota may not even sell them as they are in short supply. 6 of them would be $15,000, more than a Xebra sells for new. Second you would need a different charging system to avoid over charging the NiMH batteries. You can replace the lead acid batteries for a fraction of what just one Prius battery sells for. If you are converting a car to electric I would look into the NiMH that are offered from overseas mfg companies. You would do much better than buying from Toyota.

Messages Page 66 of 67

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