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Hybrid Vehicles The Great Hybrid Battery Debate
669 messages, Last post on Apr 06, 2009 at 2:32 PM
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Replying to: gagrice (Oct 12, 2008 5:27 pm) My guess is that this is a 'down demo' that a manager or owner or member of the owner's family has been driving from Jan til now. It still is regarded as a 'new vehicle' since it's never been sold at retail and never titled. If it's like in VA the 'down demos' have to be parked at about 5000 miles so that they can still be sold as 'new'.
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Oct 12, 2008 6:28 pm)  127 amphours= 1714 watthours. IF you stack nimh modules into the normal lead acid size battery box it comes out to about 17volts only 104 amphours = 1768 watthours; plus ni-mh modules cost massively more money? Can you explain this situation , are we missing something? Sure ni-mh lasts longer but we were under the impression that they were also much higher power (like 30-50% higher amphours for approximately 14volts systems). The "normal" standard of industry is the 20 hour rate of draining. Maybe they use a different rate schedule for the ni-mh (normally battery amphour ratings are at the 20 hour rate). In other words if a battery is rated at 6.5 amphours and that is the true 20 hour rate. That is the energy you can get from it over 20 hours. IE a 100 amphour battery means that over 20 hours you can get 5 amps steady draw for 20 hours = 100 amphours. Faster draining is less IE . same 100 amphour rated battery drained at 10 amps would only last "perhaps" 7-8 hours (its not linearly proportional). Thanks for any information you can give on this. We really thought the ni-mh was at least 30% better energy density. Thanks, Inventor |
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Gary says, "We have not reached 9 years on the first gen Prius that had the batteries recalled. You do not have any statistics on how many of those batteries were replaced. I doubt Toyota would ever give that information to the public. The current Prius is barely 5 years old. Toyota will probably luck out as most people that buy them are high mileage drivers. The ones I will be watching are those that only put 10k miles per year or less. They will stretch the EPA/CARB warranty to the max. So father time has another 5 years to go." First of all, the Prius is now 11 years old, as the first ones were sold in Japan in December 1997, making them now 11+ years old. Second of all, I told you in the last post that the Gen I Prius "recall" was merely to reseal the battery terminals. They had nothing to do with the performance or failure of the battery. You are right about a lot of things Gary, and I like discussing things with you. But you are wrong about these batteries.
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Replying to: larsb (Jan 09, 2009 7:24 am) Kind of hard to prove that when Japan's average car is only 6.6 years old. I don't know the actual number of first gen Prius sold here. It had to be very small numbers. The real test will be when the big selling 2nd gen Prius starts to age. 5 years down and counting. This all started with my question of longevity on Li-Ion which has a HORRIBLE life span history in laptop computers. Cell phones, who keeps one more than 3 years? My last two laptops out of 6 I have owned were Li-Ion. My current one just passed 3 years and out of warranty. The battery does not last more than an hour now. It would go 4 hours when new. My first Dell laptop using Li-Ion went through 2 batteries in less than 3 years. These are Identical to the 6000+ AA cells in the Tesla. I look for the early innovators to start screaming in about a year from now.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jan 09, 2009 8:54 am) Toyota Prius II Battery Pack Battery Pack Thermal Management "The purpose of a battery thermal management system is to keep the batteries operating within a desirable temperature range; prevent the batteries from exceeding a high temperature limit that can damage the batteries and/or reduce life; and maintain battery temperature variations to low levels to prevent highly imbalanced batteries. Pack imbalances can reduce performance and can also damage the battery and/or reduce life. Thermal management of the battery pack is typically accomplished with the combination of two approaches. First, a cooling/heating system is designed to extract/supply heat to the battery pack. Second, the battery controller adjusts the vehicle’s use of the battery pack based on the conditions in the batteries." These systems are nothing like the battery systems in cell phones, laptop computers or even Segways. 'Yota would not warranty them for 10 years/100K miles if they were not confident that the batteries would last that long. Here is a PDF that talks about the Li-ion batteries in the test Prius: Read This All Ye Who Doubt Li-ion Here is info on how the Tesla system will avoid "early" battery failures
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Replying to: larsb (Jan 09, 2009 9:05 am) They would not warranty them for 10 years and 100k miles were they not forced to do it by the EPA and CARB. And in the CARB states it is 10 years 150k miles. Reading about a battery and it performing valiantly for 10 years is not the same thing. We shall see how the auto companies deal with the 10 year warranty on the Li-Ion batteries. I would consider that a safe bet as I do with all the hybrids. Most people are not keeping cars 10 years. I just do not see any hybrid that would work for me on the market. So it is a non starter issue. |
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Is Chevron/Texaco holding the NiMh (large format) battery hostage? To suppress the EV in america? To hold the price of oil high? Did they conspire with GM (who sold contol of the patent for nimh to Texaco in last part of 90's) ? Was GM so frantically afraid of losing the gas car parts business because they make more on parts than on the new car sales ( similar to the inkjet printer scam in which they almost give you the printer because they know you have buy expensive ink forever more)? OUR EVIDENCE IS BELOW: Our small one time admittedly test with a small Li-Ion told us to stay away from them as they can't take the beating for very long . Also MIT was hyping there trailblazing drive across country using Li-Ion (hundreds of small ones soldered together).. I think they got as far as illinois before quitting. Basically you might remember that Ni-Mh was used in the EV1 and witnesses (users who leased it) say it went 100 to 130 miles at about 70mph. Toyota Rav4 EV's that survived the toyota recall *(some courts ordered toyota to sell the leased Ev's to the leasers ) are still on the road with the same nimh batteries. Also virtually every Hybrid is using NiMH , and why? Obviously the H car was hyped to distract us from the already great Ev's that were crushed by GM. Same for BioGas, etc. Notice how every year they keep saying " Next Year, the volt ev, phev's, blah blah blah, " Like a broken record and they have been doing that for 10 years! Its all a scam,, the biggest joke is that now GM and the others are getting Billions more when in fact they caused this whole economic mess, yes economies soar when energy (oil) is cheap). |
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This is from a Hybrid specialty repair shop in San Francisco that replaces a lot of Prius batteries. Based on experience within our walls and in discussion with technicians across the country, we can fairly call Gen 1 Prius battery failures “common” and even “predictable.” The youngest we’ve seen served 130,000 miles, some make it past 200,000 miles. Overall we’ve found 150,000 miles a reasonable expectation of how long the packs will last. What the car needs is a new high voltage battery. There are three potential approaches: 1.) Replace the battery with a new one from Toyota Despite prevailing rumor, new battery packs from Toyota are not unreasonably expensive. While they are a significant financial investment, they can be expected to last as long as originals, as they are brand new and OE grade. Given increasing number of Gen 1 battery failures, OE replacement packs are often backordered. Expect to wait 10-14 business days for delivery from Japan. Installation: $600 New Battery Pack: $2,499 Tax: $212.42 Total: $3,311.42 http://lusciousgarage.com/index.php/blog/gen_1_prius_battery_failure/ This shop works on hybrids that are out of warranty. So they will have no solid figures on warranty battery replacements. I would say Toyota did their engineering well to have the batteries last the limits of the warranty.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jan 15, 2009 6:17 pm) Second generation Prius batteries are similar to the Gen 1’s design but chemically much improved; we have never seen a Gen 2 pack failure in our shop (though we have many cars with mileage exceeding 300k) and have only heard of a few isolated cases from dealer techs across the country. (These failures have been blamed on contamination during manufacturing and show up early in the car’s life.) To be fair, the Gen 2’s battery control software is also improved, which also accounts for extended pack life. Gen 2 Prius are far more common and used parts are much easier to obtain. The Gen 2’s modules are the same individual voltage (7.2) but fewer in overall number (28, for a nominal voltage to 201.6), so it takes two Gen 2 packs to build one replacement for the Gen 1. This also takes more labor. But the good news is that these packs can be purchased used for much less than the Gen 1’s and can also be expected to last as long as new ones, if not longer. (Pic of Carolyn working on a Gen 2 pack) You can even replace Gen 1 battery modules with Gen 2 battery modules. That's very cool. |
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