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Hybrid Vehicles The Great Hybrid Battery Debate
669 messages, Last post on Apr 06, 2009 at 2:32 PM
You are in the Hybrid Vehicles Forum. Your Host is pf_flyer
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Oct 11, 2008 11:10 am) All 2009 except noted: Camry Hybrid 5 each $32,129 Camry XLE 2.4L 3 each $26,269 Camry XLE V6 one each $29,429 (2008) Prius 11 each Start at $24,869 to $28,844 Matrix 12 each from $19,519 to $23,879 with AWD That is $5860 more for the Camry hybrid over the Camry XLE 4 cyl. I cannot see ever getting the value form a hybrid in CA. Your prices may vary. We have 11 dealers and they all have similar or higher pricing.
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Replying to: gagrice (Oct 11, 2008 1:04 pm) In the first two vehicles you compared a loaded TCH with leather, Navi and Sunroof to a standard XLE 4c without leather or Navi. Your comparo is the most specific of all specific cases....actual inventory on hand. There's no valid conclusion that can be drawn from looking at actual inventory on hand unless you wanted to drive away this afternoon in one. That XLE V6 has to be a Used one or off-Rental vehicle. The new 2008s were gone on President's Day W/E in Feb. The current MSRP for a 2009 XLE V6 is ~$32600. Go to the website. Approximate numbers XLE V6 $32600 TCH ... $32100 XLE I4 $30800 The Matrix FWD with PO, KE, AA, VS and Z1 is about $20600 MSRP The Prius Pck#2 with similar equipment is $ $24400. You can get Navi in the Matrix XRS with a SR but not with Bluetooth nor with leather. However this will put you into the $25500 range as opposed to a Package #5 Prius  $27900 ( Navi / No leather ).
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Oct 12, 2008 1:47 pm)  . Check out the prices. I just picked the top of the list Toyota dealer. They have 3 XLE 4C at $26k. http://www.mossytoyota.com/new-inventory/vehicle-details.htm?vehicleId=fd7df9e74- 046381e013c6654b5a8df8f&useHistory=true
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Replying to: gagrice (Oct 12, 2008 5:27 pm) My guess is that this is a 'down demo' that a manager or owner or member of the owner's family has been driving from Jan til now. It still is regarded as a 'new vehicle' since it's never been sold at retail and never titled. If it's like in VA the 'down demos' have to be parked at about 5000 miles so that they can still be sold as 'new'.
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Oct 12, 2008 6:28 pm) 127 amphours= 1714 watthours. IF you stack nimh modules into the normal lead acid size battery box it comes out to about 17volts only 104 amphours = 1768 watthours; plus ni-mh modules cost massively more money? Can you explain this situation , are we missing something? Sure ni-mh lasts longer but we were under the impression that they were also much higher power (like 30-50% higher amphours for approximately 14volts systems). The "normal" standard of industry is the 20 hour rate of draining. Maybe they use a different rate schedule for the ni-mh (normally battery amphour ratings are at the 20 hour rate). In other words if a battery is rated at 6.5 amphours and that is the true 20 hour rate. That is the energy you can get from it over 20 hours. IE a 100 amphour battery means that over 20 hours you can get 5 amps steady draw for 20 hours = 100 amphours. Faster draining is less IE . same 100 amphour rated battery drained at 10 amps would only last "perhaps" 7-8 hours (its not linearly proportional). Thanks for any information you can give on this. We really thought the ni-mh was at least 30% better energy density. Thanks, Inventor |
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Gary says, "We have not reached 9 years on the first gen Prius that had the batteries recalled. You do not have any statistics on how many of those batteries were replaced. I doubt Toyota would ever give that information to the public. The current Prius is barely 5 years old. Toyota will probably luck out as most people that buy them are high mileage drivers. The ones I will be watching are those that only put 10k miles per year or less. They will stretch the EPA/CARB warranty to the max. So father time has another 5 years to go." First of all, the Prius is now 11 years old, as the first ones were sold in Japan in December 1997, making them now 11+ years old. Second of all, I told you in the last post that the Gen I Prius "recall" was merely to reseal the battery terminals. They had nothing to do with the performance or failure of the battery. You are right about a lot of things Gary, and I like discussing things with you. But you are wrong about these batteries.
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Replying to: larsb (Jan 09, 2009 7:24 am) Kind of hard to prove that when Japan's average car is only 6.6 years old. I don't know the actual number of first gen Prius sold here. It had to be very small numbers. The real test will be when the big selling 2nd gen Prius starts to age. 5 years down and counting. This all started with my question of longevity on Li-Ion which has a HORRIBLE life span history in laptop computers. Cell phones, who keeps one more than 3 years? My last two laptops out of 6 I have owned were Li-Ion. My current one just passed 3 years and out of warranty. The battery does not last more than an hour now. It would go 4 hours when new. My first Dell laptop using Li-Ion went through 2 batteries in less than 3 years. These are Identical to the 6000+ AA cells in the Tesla. I look for the early innovators to start screaming in about a year from now.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jan 09, 2009 8:54 am) Toyota Prius II Battery Pack Battery Pack Thermal Management "The purpose of a battery thermal management system is to keep the batteries operating within a desirable temperature range; prevent the batteries from exceeding a high temperature limit that can damage the batteries and/or reduce life; and maintain battery temperature variations to low levels to prevent highly imbalanced batteries. Pack imbalances can reduce performance and can also damage the battery and/or reduce life. Thermal management of the battery pack is typically accomplished with the combination of two approaches. First, a cooling/heating system is designed to extract/supply heat to the battery pack. Second, the battery controller adjusts the vehicle’s use of the battery pack based on the conditions in the batteries." These systems are nothing like the battery systems in cell phones, laptop computers or even Segways. 'Yota would not warranty them for 10 years/100K miles if they were not confident that the batteries would last that long. Here is a PDF that talks about the Li-ion batteries in the test Prius: Read This All Ye Who Doubt Li-ion Here is info on how the Tesla system will avoid "early" battery failures
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Replying to: larsb (Jan 09, 2009 9:05 am) They would not warranty them for 10 years and 100k miles were they not forced to do it by the EPA and CARB. And in the CARB states it is 10 years 150k miles. Reading about a battery and it performing valiantly for 10 years is not the same thing. We shall see how the auto companies deal with the 10 year warranty on the Li-Ion batteries. I would consider that a safe bet as I do with all the hybrids. Most people are not keeping cars 10 years. I just do not see any hybrid that would work for me on the market. So it is a non starter issue. |
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Hybrid Vehicles The Great Hybrid Battery Debate
