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Hybrid Vehicles The Great Hybrid Battery Debate
669 messages, Last post on Apr 06, 2009 at 2:32 PM
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Oct 07, 2008 12:05 pm) Thank you for your reply. >"Your math is WAY OFF here in regards to the Civic gasser vs HCH. At most it's about $3000." I'm thinkin that If anything, my $4000 for comparison may have been a bit low. I just went back to Edmunds and checked the MSRP on a few vehicles, for the sake of comparison, Using the automatic tranny. We know, that how a car is actually equipped will reflect the actual MSRP as well as the actual selling price. I don't know how the base or the high end models are equipped. The Civic Hybrids ranged from $23,550 to $26,750 The Civic gassers ranged from $16,205 to $22,205 Extra cost for Hybrid................$7,345 to $ 4,555 Toyota Camry only showed 1 hybrid. The price is $26,150 The gas Camry ranged in price from $20,195 to $22,815 Extra cost for the Hybrid ranges from $3945 to $5,955 The Prius Ranges from $22,000 to $24,270. The gas Corolla Ranges from $16,150 to $20,050. Extra cost for the Prius ranges from $5850 to $4220. Using the Edmunds "Comparator", The Corolla is closer in size to the Prius than the Camry is. Actually the Corolla is a bit larger than the Prius. The Camry is larger than either. So I compared the Corolla to the Prius. I gave the low to high ranges because the different equipment can require that maybe a a base gasser is not equipped as well as a base hybrid and so forth. We also need to consider that the dealers are going to hold the Hybrid prices as high as possible, and possibly even add on a "Supply and Demand" fee to the bottom line. Where as they are "dealing" on the gassers as the market is becoming flooded with them. The "Hype" is on as you pointed out with: >"As an example last July USED 1 y.o. Prius' which originally has an MSRP of $22000, with 10-12000 miles on them, were going for $26000 - $28000 at auctions. Not only was there no depreciation but the buyers actually had 25% appreciation." Why anyone would want to pay the dealer that $26K-$28K PLUS dealer profit for a used Prius is beyond logic to me. >"If I keep a vehicle for 'X' number of years ( pick a number ) then which of the following two vehicles will cost me less over that timeframe and miles driven factoring in fuel costs, maintenance, insurance and resale value" That sounds one fair way of saying it! In my above post I was simply trying to point out the possible length of time the average driver would/could expect to drive before he was getting out of the "Extra cost" Hole. Getting to the Break Even point of owning a Hybrid rather than a gasser.  Seems that everyone is jumping on the Hybrid band wagon right now. So we don't know the value of todays hybrids in the future. Batteries as we know them may be a thing of the past, which would hurt the resale of present day technologies. Of course, gassers may also be a thing of the past. Regards, Kip
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Replying to: kipk (Oct 08, 2008 6:22 am) The Civic hybrid is roughly equal to the Civic EX, No leather and No Navi. http://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/2008/index.html#search=open.eq..amp.p.eq.cveh- icledata%23%23-1%23%23-1%7E%7Ef64%7C%7C536564616e%7E%7Enf51%7C%7C436f6d70616374 The respective Base prices are $19510 and $22600,i.e. about a $3000 difference. The Prius is not comparable to a Corolla. The Prius is a 5 door hatchback the Corolla is a 4 door sedan. The Prius is more accurately comparable to the Matrix which is also a 4cyl 5 door hatchback The respective prices, with similar equipment, are $20400 and $24400,i.e. about a $4000 difference The standard TCH is very close in equipment to the 4c XLE Camry gasser. The respective prices are $27400 and $29200 ( both have cloth, SR but no Navi ), i.e. about an $1800 difference. The auction prices that I mentioned in my post were NOT the resale prices being asked to the public. They were the purchase prices being paid by professional buyers on behalf of the dealers in order to secure those vehicles. Then the vehicles had to be transported back to the buying store, prepped, financed and resold. Some stores had as many as 20-40 of these in stock and the public willingly understood that they were paying $5000 - $10000 above the original sticker. The market speaks. Again there is no 'Break Even' point unless you are generating income with your vehicle. What you actually have is two columns of expenses, one for vehicle A and one for vehicle B. In the case of the Civic / HCH comparo the bottom lines are about equal at 6 yrs but the HCH costs less if the vehicle is kept 10-12 yrs. In the case of the Prius / Matrix the costs are about equal at about 5 yrs but the Prius costs less if the vehicle is kept 10-12 yrs. In the case of the TCH / Camry the costs are about equal at 2-3 yrs but thereafter the TCH costs much less than the gasser sibling.
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Oct 08, 2008 7:44 am) The respective prices are $27400 and $29200 ( both have cloth, SR but no Navi ), i.e. about an $1800 difference." WHEN, a Hybrid of comparable size and weight and equipment can be bought at $1800 more than a gasser, it will be a value. You and I both know that just ain't happening. The battery pack alone cost more than that. Also the dealers are not "dealing" on the Hybrids. They are "dealing" on the gassers. If anything, they may tend to add more $1500-$2500 "Protection" to the hybrids. Such as, pin stripe, fabric protection (scotch guard), and the infamous acid rain paint protector. These items are added by the "Get Ready" department at the dealer. Biggest cost to the dealer is the wage paid to the guy spraying, washing, and stretching the tape. Add to that the "Supply and demand", sticker and the "We just aren't going to deal on this one" mentality, and there is a huge difference in the price of a Hybrid and Comparably Equipped, same size vehicle. Your dealership may be different. >The auction prices that I mentioned in my post were NOT the resale prices being asked to the public. They were the purchase prices being paid by professional buyers on behalf of the dealers in order to secure those vehicles. Then the vehicles had to be transported back to the buying store, prepped, financed and resold. Some stores had as many as 20-40 of these in stock and the public willingly understood that they were paying $5000 - $10000 above the original sticker." There ya go !. When used ones are selling for $5000 - $10000 more than the new MSRP, How much is the price of a new one jacked up? Just so we are on the same page or at least in the same book, I personally feel that the Toyota and the Honda are be best values in the automotive world. Everything considered. However, right now, I don't think the Hybrids are worth the real world "Extra" cost. >"Again there is no ' Break Even' point unless you are generating income with your vehicle." At $5,000-$10,000 extra cost for the Hybrid, you are right. There is no ' break even' point. In this case, For me, "Break Even" is : When the higher initial cost of the Hybrid is compensated for by fuel savings, the "Break Even" point is reached. It has cost as much to own one as the other. From that point, I'm saving money, until time to replace batteries or something else went wrong that is Hybrid exclusive. I don't understand how/why you feel there is only "Break Even" for those using the car to generate income. Please explain !  Thanks, Kip
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Replying to: kipk (Oct 11, 2008 5:12 am) All the other stuff that you note about protection and worthless addons is only a local/regional issue. It also depends on one's ability to say 'NO'. I don't understand how/why you feel there is only "Break Even" for those using the car to generate income. Please explain 'Break Even' is a specific accounting concept that occurs when income equals expense ( usually fixed expense ). If you are the normal retail buyer then you don't generate any income by the use of your vehicle. If you were a small business ( which in fact you are with your family budget ) the correct way to do an analysis is that you or your accountant would do an analysis of two vehicles; add up all the expected expenses over the expected life of the two vehicles then you'd choose which vehicle cost you less in total expenses. That's the only valid comparo to make. In almost all cases the hybrids cost less then the non-hybrid versions.
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Oct 11, 2008 11:10 am) All 2009 except noted: Camry Hybrid 5 each $32,129 Camry XLE 2.4L 3 each $26,269 Camry XLE V6 one each $29,429 (2008) Prius 11 each Start at $24,869 to $28,844 Matrix 12 each from $19,519 to $23,879 with AWD That is $5860 more for the Camry hybrid over the Camry XLE 4 cyl. I cannot see ever getting the value form a hybrid in CA. Your prices may vary. We have 11 dealers and they all have similar or higher pricing.
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Replying to: gagrice (Oct 11, 2008 1:04 pm) In the first two vehicles you compared a loaded TCH with leather, Navi and Sunroof to a standard XLE 4c without leather or Navi. Your comparo is the most specific of all specific cases....actual inventory on hand. There's no valid conclusion that can be drawn from looking at actual inventory on hand unless you wanted to drive away this afternoon in one. That XLE V6 has to be a Used one or off-Rental vehicle. The new 2008s were gone on President's Day W/E in Feb. The current MSRP for a 2009 XLE V6 is ~$32600. Go to the website. Approximate numbers XLE V6 $32600 TCH ... $32100 XLE I4 $30800 The Matrix FWD with PO, KE, AA, VS and Z1 is about $20600 MSRP The Prius Pck#2 with similar equipment is $ $24400. You can get Navi in the Matrix XRS with a SR but not with Bluetooth nor with leather. However this will put you into the $25500 range as opposed to a Package #5 Prius  $27900 ( Navi / No leather ).
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Oct 12, 2008 1:47 pm)  . Check out the prices. I just picked the top of the list Toyota dealer. They have 3 XLE 4C at $26k. http://www.mossytoyota.com/new-inventory/vehicle-details.htm?vehicleId=fd7df9e74- 046381e013c6654b5a8df8f&useHistory=true
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Replying to: gagrice (Oct 12, 2008 5:27 pm) My guess is that this is a 'down demo' that a manager or owner or member of the owner's family has been driving from Jan til now. It still is regarded as a 'new vehicle' since it's never been sold at retail and never titled. If it's like in VA the 'down demos' have to be parked at about 5000 miles so that they can still be sold as 'new'.
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Oct 12, 2008 6:28 pm) 127 amphours= 1714 watthours. IF you stack nimh modules into the normal lead acid size battery box it comes out to about 17volts only 104 amphours = 1768 watthours; plus ni-mh modules cost massively more money? Can you explain this situation , are we missing something? Sure ni-mh lasts longer but we were under the impression that they were also much higher power (like 30-50% higher amphours for approximately 14volts systems). The "normal" standard of industry is the 20 hour rate of draining. Maybe they use a different rate schedule for the ni-mh (normally battery amphour ratings are at the 20 hour rate). In other words if a battery is rated at 6.5 amphours and that is the true 20 hour rate. That is the energy you can get from it over 20 hours. IE a 100 amphour battery means that over 20 hours you can get 5 amps steady draw for 20 hours = 100 amphours. Faster draining is less IE . same 100 amphour rated battery drained at 10 amps would only last "perhaps" 7-8 hours (its not linearly proportional). Thanks for any information you can give on this. We really thought the ni-mh was at least 30% better energy density. Thanks, Inventor |
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Hybrid Vehicles The Great Hybrid Battery Debate
