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Hybrid Vehicles The Great Hybrid Battery Debate
669 messages, Last post on Apr 06, 2009 at 2:32 PM
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Replying to: gagrice (Jul 07, 2008 6:58 pm) Both points are so are far from the realm of reality that the answer just doesn't matter. The occurances are so rare that when and if one does ever happen, just like your Sequoia, and a customer is put out of a vehicle by a warranty issue there is replacement transportation - of equal type - available at one of the TRAC outlets. |
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Replying to: larsb (Jul 07, 2008 1:00 pm) Let me also add that a battery replacement costs would need to be averaged over the total life of the car, not just the first 10 years. However, a battery replacement cost should be applied to the future life of the car. An owner replacing batteries would see a cost for years 10 to 20 (assuming the batteries are replaced at year 10 and last to year 20). Battery replacement, as you pointed out, really isn't much of an issue as it turns out. The same folks that bring up the Prius batteries also conveniently ignore the lack of reliability from a certain manufacturer that happens to be introducing a new diesel car this year. I am definitely convinced that the battery issue is now a non-issue - the NiMH batteries anyway. Not sure about the Li-Ion batteries yet. The issue was probably the only issue that was really standing in the way of me buying a hybrid in the future.
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Replying to: avalon02wh (Jul 08, 2008 3:26 am)
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Replying to: gagrice (Jul 08, 2008 10:40 am) Go right on this site and look up any high volume passenger vehicle with 180,000 mi and/or 15 yrs on it. It's worth less than $500! Who cares if the battery goes out at 180K or 200K or 220K miles? The vehicle is worth nothing anyway. This objection that's constantly being raised over and over again is truely a tempest in a teapot. 93 Camry 150,000 mi = $455 94 Accord 180,000 mi = $250 95 Taurus 130,000 mi = $190
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Replying to: gagrice (Jul 08, 2008 10:40 am) Well, it's not MAGIC Gary. There will without a doubt be "some battery deterioration" and that FACT is unavoidable. But how much it affects the mileage will be the key point. Most of the older, highest mileage Priuses which have been reported on show little or no loss in MPG as they age. After a battery has 8-10 years on it, the performance of the battery cannot help but be affected. I'm the one saying "Prius batteries will not FAIL EN MASSE" over time. There will be a few failures out of warranty, for sure. I think that number will still hover around minuscule to barely a blip.
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Jul 08, 2008 11:56 am) You also like to show that any vehicle that is 10 years old is worthless to the owner. It is worthless to a dealer. It is possibly all the owner can afford. If after 10 years he has to replace an expensive battery that will make the Prius WORTHLESS. So I guess by your definition the Prius is a 10 year throwaway vehicle. I would probably agree with that. Our 19 year old LS400 runs and looks better than many 3-5 year old cars. If we had to replace a $4k to $6k component I would give it to Father Carlucci as a donation. The point being I don't want a car that has that kind of built in expensive component that is deteriorating whether it is being used or not. That is the nature of batteries. It will be the Achilles heel of all EVs in the future. Fine for high mileage drivers not so good for low mileage long term owners.
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Gary says, "For you to say that the Prius battery will last 150K miles is just crazy talk." Ditto from me for anyone who says it won't. We already have Priuses with that many miles.  ( However you slice your comment, it's merely an anti-hybrid, biased opinion, is it not? ) The Prius might be a 10-yr throwaway vehicle for some owners. Just as many gasoline cars also are treated. But about 90% of the Prius can or will be recycled - so who loses? A solution which will please you Gary: "Long term low mileage drivers" can just keep buying gasoline cars as long as they are available. Battery technology WILL SOMEDAY reach the point of lifetime batteries and/or an affordable replacement for the 10-yr owner. Book it. It's gonna happen. If not, then non-fossil-fueled cars will adopt some other sort of alternative power technology. There are too many smart people in the world for this to not be figured out.
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Replying to: larsb (Jul 08, 2008 12:07 pm) That has been one of the sticking points in my mind since the hybrid hit the streets. For those of us conservative drivers will the hybrid be a good "green" long term purchase? If it needs a new battery after 10 years the answer is a resounding NO! Which brings up the real issue. At what point will the automaker be forced to change the battery? At 50% 60% 70% 80% of original capacity. I would say when it drops below 80% it should start losing mileage. That is just an educated guess. I noticed about a year ago that the Lexus starter seemed sluggish. Truth is it was the deterioration of the battery. It finally failed in front of the Costco gas pump. Called AAA and they came and installed a new battery. That sluggish starter sound is gone. It is like we have a new car for $124 including tax and installation. I don't think the person with a 19 year old Prius will be so lucky. All that smugness at the gas pump when they are filling for less than I am will go away. If there ever is such a thing as a 19 year old hybrid.... I just doubt it. Sad isn't it?
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Replying to: larsb (Jul 08, 2008 1:36 pm) That is the 10 year average driver. We shall see if you are right after 5 more years. The fact that my car would be worthless and 90% recycled is very comforting indeed.  I know that our LS400 is probably worthless to a dealer. It still runs great and is how I think all vehicles should be built. Sadly they are not and we are tossing them after just a few years. I dare say the new Lexus will not hold up as well as the first of the breed. What does that say about Toyota and Lexus as automakers. Green does not come to mind. A green car to me is one that is still good after 20 years. There are many environmentalist that share my view. Auto salesmen are definitely not in that group. Mercedes has probably built the most green cars over the last 30 years. Last I read they were awarded greenest car on the planet award. Though it probably would not pass my test for longevity. All people think about is emissions from the exhaust. That is not all we should be measuring.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jul 08, 2008 1:54 pm) All cars reach "worthless" at some point, unless totaled or retired early. Cars which are driven as commuter cars are not an investment (other than collector cars, we know) - they are a consumable which eventually gets consumed down to nothing. Gary says, "A green car to me is one that is still good after 20 years." Lucky for the rest of the world that is only one man's opinion. Gary says, "Last I read they were awarded greenest car on the planet award." Where did you see that? I'd like to see someone who put them ahead of Honda. |
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