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#583 of 669 The best hybrid battery longevity article I have ever read
May 29, 2008 (6:15 am)
This has a lot of good info:
Despite eBay's booming battery bazaar, Toyota, Honda and Ford all say hybrid battery failures are extremely rare. Out of more than 100,000 Honda hybrids on the road, the automaker says fewer than 200 have had a battery fail after the warranty expired. Honda, like Toyota and Ford, covers the cost of battery replacement for the first 100,000 miles in most states and 150,000 miles in California and a few other states with tough green car laws.
Toyota says its out-of-warranty battery replacement rate is 0.003 percent on the second generation Prius that debuted in the 2004 model year. That equals about one out of 40,000 Priuses sold, says Toyota spokesman John Hanson. That's a vast improvement over the first generation Prius, which had about 1 percent of the batteries fail after the warranty expired. Hanson says today's Prius batteries are designed to last "the life of the car," which Toyota defines as 180,000 miles. (Toyota and Panasonic announced Friday that they will build a new $200 million factory to produce more hybrid batteries to meet the automaker's goal of selling 1 million gas-electric cars a year.)
For those unlucky few who have to replace their own batteries, the cost is coming down. On June 1 Honda is slashing the cost of its batteries from $3,400 (excluding installation) to as low as $1,968 on an Insight or as high as $2,440 on an Accord hybrid. Toyota also plans to substantially cut battery prices, which now stand at $3,000 (excluding installation), down from $5,500 on the original Prius. Both automakers attribute the price cuts to improved technology and lower production costs. But some analysts think Toyota and Honda are really trying to get ahead of consumer concerns about battery replacement. "PR is a very important factor in the hybrid market," says J.D. Power's Omotoso. "Honda and Toyota have the oldest hybrids on the road. And when a hybrid gets to be that old, you have to factor battery replacement costs into your purchase decision."
#584 of 669 Re: The best hybrid battery longevity article I have ever read [larsb]
May 29, 2008 (4:36 pm)
What do you think the dealer will charge for installation if you are the one in a hundred that needs a new $5500 battery? I would guess about $1000 to install. Making the car worthless when the battery dies.
Used Prius for sale, BYOB (bring your own battery)
It is good that Toyota and Honda are fessing up to the dead batteries after warranty. I would still like to know how many they have replaced while under warranty.
#585 of 669 Re: The best hybrid battery longevity article I have ever read [gagrice]
May 29, 2008 (5:44 pm)
Batteries don't die, they degrade. A battery that can only hold 79% of its charge is only worth slightly less than a battery that can hold 80% of its charge. Regardless, a used Prius with no battery is still not worthless. It's got to still have the utility of a used Corolla.
#586 of 669 Re: The best hybrid battery longevity article I have ever read [gagrice]
May 29, 2008 (9:26 pm)
everytime this issue comes up the single most important question of all is NEVER asked....
"What's ANY car worth that has 180K - 225K miles on the ticker?"
I know what the answer is, I see it every week. It's worth less than $300. No moron is going to put a $2000 or $3000 or $4000 battery or a tranny or any other major repair like that into a vehicle that's worth only $300.
This discussion always deteriorates into the absurd. If the hybrid battery only goes 327,459 miles....How many angels can fit on the head of a pin? The batteries don't break down except in the nightmares of the 'flat worlders'. The rest of us just drive them til we want to get rid of the vehicle. That's reality.
#587 of 669 Re: The best hybrid battery longevity article I have ever read [kdhspyder]
May 30, 2008 (12:29 pm)
The rest of us just drive them til we want to get rid of the vehicle. That's reality.
I'm not the one that posted the reality that Toyota and Honda had both SOLD replacement batteries to hybrid customers that were not covered by warranty. That means they felt it was worth the money to go a little further with their hybrid. We have had Insight owners complain of deteriorated batteries that Honda refused to change under warranty. If you are not part of the 1% of the Prius owners that have drawn the bad battery, you are one of the lucky 99%. To you a vehicle is worn out at 150K miles. To me that would never happen. I am close to 95k miles on our 19 year old Lexus. If we had to replace a battery we would be unhappy with Lexus. It is still running good. I doubt any of the hybrids will still have all their original power train including battery after 19 years. Almost 5 years now on the current Prius. The first one was a gimme and part of the R&D.
#588 of 669 Re: The best hybrid battery longevity article I have ever read [gagrice]
May 30, 2008 (2:21 pm)
Gary, you know the average person does not keep a car 150K miles. We went through that discussion a few months (or years) ago, and I posted stats showing that only around 5% of USA owners try to "drive it until the wheels fall off."
I don't know of any Honda refusals of warranty battery replacements. If it was under warranty, Honda was LEGALLY REQUIRED to replace it, if replacement was the technical remedy.
And there is no where near 1% of the Prius owners with a "bad battery." It's no where near 10,000 Priuses with battery problems. That would have been trumpeted from the highest buildings/mountains by all of 'Yota's competitors if it was that frequent.
And you yourself have mentioned the multiple thousands of dollars you have spent keeping that Lexus of yours running. What would have been the difference if the thousands had been spent on a new battery or on whatever you really did spend it on? Nothing, that's what !! No DIFFERENCE AT ALL!!
Thanks for bringing out the point that a replacement battery on a hybrid is just another maintenance cost, like replacing the tranny.
And like others have said - a battery losing charge capability does not DISABLE a Prius - it just means the hybrid drivetrain contributes less to the propulsion, and the car will get worse gas mileage.
I can't wait until a few more years pass and I get to tell/show you how wrong you have been about hybrids and longevity. Already been 10, almost 11 years now, and we are not hearing about droves of Priuses sitting dead in junkyards, are we?
NOPE, and we never will.
#589 of 669 Re: The best hybrid battery longevity article I have ever read [larsb]
May 30, 2008 (3:23 pm)
Honda was LEGALLY REQUIRED to replace it, if replacement was the technical remedy.
Well there were two Insight owners at least that posted their Insights were losing ooomph, indicating a deteriorating battery. The Honda dealers in both cases would not replace them because they had not failed to a certain point. Whatever that may be.
And there is no where near 1% of the Prius owners with a "bad battery."
You posted that statistic NOT me.
As far as the cost of maintaining our Lexus in top condition. That was purely a dealer over charging for insignificant repairs in many cases. Before my wife and I were married. When they tried that crap with me I found a great independent shop. I believe total maintenance over the 19 years is about $18k. Several $1000 routine checkups and oil changes. The Lexus dealer she bought the car from does not treat customers fairly. The car's engine and transmission is all original. The only major parts were suspension related.
I stand with my statement. I do not believe ANY hybrid battery will last 19 years. For those of us that do our part to conserve by keeping a car a long time the hybrids are probably not a good option. That being the reason I prefer diesel. The simpler the better. I have a line on a 20 year old diesel Land Cruiser in Canada. That is legal you know.
If you want to count the 9 year old Prius. We can bring up multiple problems they have encountered including MANY battery failures.
#590 of 669 Re: The best hybrid battery longevity article I have ever read [larsb]
May 30, 2008 (8:38 pm)
Seems there is more to your link.
Still, hybrids don't hold their value as well as their gasoline-powered siblings, batteries aside. For example, a three-year-old Honda Civic is worth about $12,000, retaining about 60 percent of its original sticker price of $20,000, according to Blair. But a hybrid Honda Civic holds only 58 percent of its original sticker price after three years, giving it a used price of $13,630, down from a new price of $23,500. "The new car buyer is more into bells and whistles, while used car buyers are all about value," says Blair. "If a hybrid is near the end of its warranty, what could creep into the mind of the used car buyer is, 'I still have a doubt about the battery, and it's just one more big thing that could go wrong.'"
#591 of 669 GM battery problems
Jun 02, 2008 (11:59 am)
GM seems to have done a far worse job with their little piddly battery than 'Yota has done:
GM battery on the leaky side?
With gasoline at $4 a gallon and the Toyota Prius flying out dealership doors, General Motors' mild hybrid vehicles are stuck in neutral because of battery-pack failures.
GM had to use 9,000 battery packs to replace leaking ones it recalled, a company spokesman says. GM diverted those batteries from new hybrids for sale this year.
GM planned to sell about 27,000 mild hybrid vehicles this year, possibly more given the sharp rise in gasoline prices. But insiders say GM will fall far short of that goal because of problems with its Michigan-based battery maker, Cobasys, a joint venture of Chevron Technology Ventures and Energy Conversion Devices.
GM discovered an internal leak in the nickel-metal hydride batteries that Cobasys made for GM's 2007 model hybrids. The leak caused the hybrid powertrain to shut down. The vehicles could still be driven, but not with the hybrid system.
The vehicles affected were the 2007 Saturn Vue Green Line and Saturn Aura Green Line hybrids. A GM spokesman says the company recalled about 9,000 vehicles to replace battery packs. That slowed the launch of the 2008 Saturn hybrids and the new Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid.
Cobasys' batteries are specifically designed for GM's mild hybrid system. That means GM cannot switch suppliers until it brings out the next generation of mild hybrids in 2010, a source familiar with GM hybrid engineering said.
GM initiated the recall in late December when it began receiving reports of battery failures. Cobasys halted production for at least a month while it fixed the problem and revalidated the batteries, a GM source familiar with the mild hybrid program said.
"I don't know how many hybrids we could have sold, but we would have had at least 9,000 more batteries for the pipeline," GM spokesman Tom Wilkinson said. "It's not an insignificant number, but it's also part of what happens with a brand-new technology."
Repeated calls and e-mails to Cobasys were unreturned. But a person who answered the phone at the company's Springboro, Ohio, plant said production had resumed. And the GM source said the automaker is now getting the batteries it ordered.
#592 of 669 Re: The best hybrid battery longevity article I have ever read [gagrice]
Jun 02, 2008 (12:01 pm)
That's very subjective, and depends on the comparison and the area of the country. I can compare a 2004 HCH hybrid versus the most comparable EX and the HCH comes out with a higher resale value.