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Hybrid Vehicles The Great Hybrid Battery Debate
669 messages, Last post on Apr 06, 2009 at 2:32 PM
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Replying to: stevedebi (Jul 26, 2004 9:10 am) Some hybrids like Civic Hybrid and Escape Hybrid are still using Cylindrical D-shape NiMH batteries. The graph I posted above shows that Internal Resistance is very high compare to the first generation of Prismatic NiMH. Second generation Prismatic used in 04 Prius is a couple of generation ahead of cylindrical model. See the inner working of both types and you might want to rethink about your "Nothing new there" comment.  This following information is for the first generation of Prismatic NiMH used in the classic Prius; from The Society of Automotive Engineers, written by Electric & Hybrid Vehicle Engineering Div. of Toyota Motor Corporation. "The case is made of plastic, which was selected based on its resistance to the alkaline electrolyte, electrical insulation between cells, formability of the modular shape, weight, etc. The rectangular modules, when combined into a battery pack, reduced dead space and require a minimum amount of space for cooling. Thus, a compact package has been realized." "To ensure electrical safety, the component parts of the high-voltage system are enclosed in the battery pack, ..... These parts consist of a system main relay (SMR) with a built-in current sensor, a service plug with a built-in fuse, and a battery electronic control unit (ECU)." "It(SMR) functions(cuts off the high-voltage system) similarly when the vehicle is involved in a collision or when there is a malfunction in the system." "The current sensor is used for calculating the state of charge (SOC) of the battery. " "The fuse prevents electric shocks and fire in the vehicle when the battery short-circuits, such as in the case of a collision." "Based on the current, voltage, and the temperature of the battery, the battery ECU calculates the SOC and transmits it to the vehicle control system. It also monitors the battery for abnormalities." Information from Panasonic about 2nd gen Prismatic NiMH used in 04 Prius: "High power battery module for HEV application (30% more power than conventional prismatic battery) Newly developed battery has high power of 1300W/kg, 1.3 times higher than our conventional prismatic battery, and energy density of 46Wh/kg. By adopting new electrode materials and newly developed cell connection structure, internal resistance could be reduced, and more higher reliabilities on likely long life characteristic are improved due to the improvements of cell stack construction etc." Dennis |
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Replying to: stevedebi (Jul 26, 2004 1:24 pm) I'll point you to Panasonic website that have all the information that you'll need. See which hybrid used which type of NiMH: http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/e_news.html See spec of 1st gen and 2nd gen prismatic NiMH: http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/catalog/e_kaku.html Spec of Cylindrical NiMH: http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/catalog/e_maru.html Battery catalog page with more links: http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/e_catalog1.html Dennis
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Replying to: usbseawolf2000 (Jul 26, 2004 1:47 pm) |
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Well, I stand corrected. Thanks for the updates... Very useful to have these boards... |
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quote MidCow:-"The current fear is the unknown life-span of the traction batteries."-end quote Lots of good points MidCow, you have a good grasp of the situation. Leading to a "BUT:" I'm not sure where you might be getting the indications of this being an actual FEAR that might be preventing Hybrid purchases...?....?...? So far we have true stories of Priuses going 150K miles and being bought back by Toyota for evaluation... We have 1997 model year Priuses on the road in Japan... We have warranties of 8 yr/100,000 miles on the batteries in some hybrids.... Is there ANYWHERE a story of ONE SINGLE potential Hybrid buyer telling the salesperson, "Well, I love everything about the car, but that darn uncertainty about the life of the battery is just KILLING the deal !!" I don't think we have any of that. Even if we DO have a few isloated incidences of that happening, I cannot for a second believe that it has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with the acceptance of Hybrids to the mainstream buyer... Anyone have any evidence to support that fear? |
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Replying to: larsb (Nov 01, 2004 10:33 am) Here's an indication. I cannot even consider hybrids until the battery life-span has been well proven in the real-world So far we have true stories of Priuses going 150K miles and being bought back by Toyota for evaluation... And this is supposed to make a sceptic feel comfortable ? What it makes me feel is that Toyota is surprised that the car made it to 150K miles, so they want to evaluate it. Causes one more concern about the product, rather than the other way around. Is there ANYWHERE a story of ONE SINGLE potential Hybrid buyer telling the salesperson, "Well, I love everything about the car, but that darn uncertainty about the life of the battery is just KILLING the deal !!" Fortunately there's no need for such a story. People actually know how they feel about hybrids so there's no need to go a salesman and tell him that story. Anyone have any evidence to support that fear? Is there enough evidence NOT to have that fear. Maybe in your mind there is, but certainly not in mine. |
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Replying to: zodiac2004 (Nov 01, 2004 6:10 pm) I think the only safe place to own a Prius is in CA. With the 150k mile mandate on emissions, Toyota has to stand behind the car and all parts that could keep it from being an AT=PZEV rated car. I still wonder if the state would come to your rescue if the car crapped out after a 125k miles.... |
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Replying to: zodiac2004 (Nov 01, 2004 6:10 pm) I will give you at least one instance of ONE SINGLE potential Hybrid buyer telling the salesman, I love everything sbout the Prius except the uncertainty of the battery life and the fact it is not avaialble with a standard transmission. --That person is ME! It really bothers me that the production of apparently all HSD Hybrids (Prius, RX400h, Highlander Hybrid, Ford Escape Hybrid) depend on on manufacturer Sanyo. If the traction battery did fail then you would have a wait to get it replaced or pay big bucks because of the shortness of supply. It also scares me that Toyota is so amazed that a car went 150,000 miles on a traction battery that they bought it back to tear it down and find out why and how. I guess I had the same trepidation with the turbos of the late 70's early 80's. Most of them went away except a few that fixed the bugs after 20-25 years. If you think there are unforeseen bugs that will not occur with the current HSD system , I think you are looking through rose colored glasses. Long term reliability is really unknown. Until we see sufficient aging and a representative statistic sample, we don't know what the true liveablity, long term relability of hybrid traction batteries are. One or two isolated cases of high mileage is not a good measure of the entire product. YMMV, MidCow |
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Replying to: midnightcowboy (Nov 02, 2004 4:59 am) I will give you at least one instance of ONE SINGLE potential Hybrid buyer telling the salesman, I love everything sbout the Prius except the uncertainty of the battery life and the fact it is not avaialble with a standard transmission. --That person is ME! It really bothers me that the production of apparently all HSD Hybrids (Prius, RX400h, Highlander Hybrid, Ford Escape Hybrid) depend on on manufacturer Sanyo. If the traction battery did fail then you would have a wait to get it replaced or pay big bucks because of the shortness of supply. It also scares me that Toyota is so amazed that a car went 150,000 miles on a traction battery that they bought it back to tear it down and find out why and how. I guess I had the same trepidation with the turbos of the late 70's early 80's. Most of them went away except a few that fixed the bugs after 20-25 years. If you think there are unforeseen bugs that will not occur with the current HSD system , I think you are looking through rose colored glasses. Long term reliability is really unknown. Until we see sufficient aging and a representative statistic sample, we don't know what the true liveablity, long term relability of hybrid traction batteries are. One or two isolated cases of high mileage is not a good measure of the entire product. YMMV, MidCow Wow, hold up there. This post should be addressed to larsb, not me. I agree 100% with every word you have typed up here. Especially about the turbos. I think there are close similarities between turbos and hybrids. Both make smaller engines perform like bigger ones, although the green factor is to the hybrids' advantage. They have been around for 20-25 years but for the longest time many people regarded them as suspect, and some people still do. When you mess with powertrain technology it's going to be a very long time before it gets accepted as mainstream, and any failures in the meantime are going to have an amplified effect.
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Replying to: zodiac2004 (Nov 02, 2004 11:25 am) You are right , SORRY I read message #344 wrong. MidCow |
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