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Hybrid Vehicles The Great Hybrid Battery Debate
669 messages, Last post on Apr 06, 2009 at 2:32 PM
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In the lab - Toyota tested Prius to 200,000 miles with no degradation of the battery. In the field - Insights/Priuses exist with over 200,000 miles (see ebay for some examples). Expert opinion - I'm an electrical engineer. I've read all the research I could find, and it shows that a battery will last indefinitely, as long as it's held within 30-70% of capacity. This cycle avoids the under-and-overcharging that kills batteries & extends life indefinitely. . Now I admit that if you abuse your car (example: drag racing) it will kill the battery. But such abuse will also kill the engine. And the transmission. And the suspension. I don't think anyone here would abuse their car in that fashion. For us, the battery/engine/et cetera will last well past 200,000 miles. In fact, I expect the battery will last longer than the engine will.
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Replying to: electrictroy (Nov 24, 2004 2:21 pm) "In the lab - Toyota tested Prius to 200,000 miles with no degradation of the battery." I'd like to see some independent studies, rather than from the manufacturor. "In the field - Insights/Priuses exist with over 200,000 miles (see ebay for some examples)." We do not know the state of the batteries in the Ebay Priuses. Hopefully, your independent analysis will prove true for the Hybrid implementation. |
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Replying to: electrictroy (Nov 24, 2004 2:21 pm) I have tracked Prius and Jetta TDIs on My Ebay for the last 6 months. The only Prius I have seen offered with 100k plus miles is a 2002 that they have a $4250 high bid on. Of the 60 or so used Prius I have tracked only one sold. The rest were "reserve not met" That one was a 2002 that they sold for $11,994. Only a fool would buy one for blue book with a 100k miles and no warranty. There have been a few that were "salvage title" sales in the $6k to $10k range. I have only read about one cab in Vancouver BC that had over 100k miles. Toyota bought it back. I would like to see some proof of the battery longevity of 200k miles. As long as you dump your Prius while it still has warranty I think you are safe. |
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In the field - Insights/Priuses exist with over 200,000 miles (see ebay for some examples). I think you meant to say check out the 3 Jetta TDIs with over 200k miles. A 1999 with 238k miles is up to $4511. A 1992 Jetta TDI with 259K miles at $1585. I doubt you ever see a hybrid with 259k miles still running good. If the batteries don't crap out all the other wizardry will die and not be worth the price to fix it. At this point the battery debate is hypothetical becasue NO ONE has driven a hybrid over 200K miles. At least not that has gotten into our hybrid forum. I could be wrong and will admit it when the evidence is exposed. |
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That taxi operator in Vancouver went "almost 200,000 miles" according to this article. If he had battery problems, he never told anyone about it. "That Yellow Taxi May Be Turning Green" By MATTHEW L. WALD (NYT) 522 words HYBRID cars' first buyers were environmentalists willing to pay extra for a vehicle that was cleaner and more efficient. The next market may be taxicabs. Andrew Grant, a taxi owner-operator in Vancouver, British Columbia, bought a 2001 Toyota Prius in the fall of 2000, and drove it nearly 200,000 miles before he replaced it with a 2004 model. ''The car actually pays for itself,'' he said." So to say that there are "no" Priuses out there with that many miles is conjecture at most. And remember: there are 1997 model year Priuses in Japan, so those guys could EASILY be exceeding 200K miles if used heavily.
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Replying to: larsb (Nov 29, 2004 7:39 am) That is conjecture. Cars in Japan usually rust away before the engine dies. That is why we get all those used engines from Japan. Your example of the Taxi in Vancouver has been covered many times. His is a good example of a good use for the Prius. I have never read anything of any trouble he had, so assume it was a good car. I don't think miles will be the downfall of the battery. I think it will be years of inactivity. We already have cases where people left the car sitting for a few weeks and the battery discharged and was ruined. We have a case where one sat at a dealer for too long and when it was sold they had problems and had to return it. I agree with those that claim IF you keep the battery in a middle range of charge. Not overcharged or run down it will last a very long time. I am not sure that will happen over a 10-15 year period. One final note. A 2002 Prius is currently on eBay with 100k miles. It is currently at $6350. It ends on Dec. 1st. I'll keep you posted as to the final price. I bet it does not reach half of the blue book value because of the mileage. |
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"And remember: there are 1997 model year Priuses in Japan, so those guys could EASILY be exceeding 200K miles if used heavily.That is conjecture." Yes, but it is EDUCATED CONJECTURE rather than a broad generalization. Educated because by doing the math, 7 years since 1997, 28K per year = 200K. "One final note. A 2002 Prius is currently on eBay with 100k miles. It is currently at $6350. It ends on Dec. 1st. I'll keep you posted as to the final price. I bet it does not reach half of the blue book value because of the mileage.-" Sure, any high mileage 2002 car is going to take a BIG HIT. Nothing AT ALL to do with the fact that it is a Hybrid or that it has a battery. I had a 2002 Avalanche with high miles that took a $5000 hit on trade value JUST because of high miles, and it is NOT a Hybrid. That is completely based on uneducated conjecture to assume that it is because of the battery issue. And remember: Ebay is not a good model for selling or buying cars. Look at the Edmunds TMV to get a value based on ACTUAL SALES AT DEALERSHIPS. Ebay car selling is not indicative of real msrket values, usually. You either get a heck of a deal or you pay too much. Lastly: TMV for a 2002 Prius with 100K miles is 12K-16K. |
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I find it odd that someone who has no interest in buying a Prius does the MOST research on it. Just curious why Gary seems to be so stuck on finding fault with this incredible car.
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Replying to: falconone (Nov 29, 2004 10:19 am) Remember I test drove one and liked it back in 2000 when they were selling at $20k. They were also backed by a 100k mile 8 year bumper to bumper warranty. Now you cannot get a straight answer as to what is covered under the mandated CA 150k mile warranty. They are selling for way more than they are worth. There are people on the forum that want to hear the whole story not just the positive aspects of the hybrids. Maybe you can tell us, are you happy with your Prius or are you still kicking tires like most of us this forum. I don't want to buy a car that is worthless after 2 years and 100k miles. Some here think because a car is on a lot for X amount of dollars that is what it is worth. Nothing could be further from the truth. Any car is worth what you can get someone else to pay for it. Does not matter if it is listed on eBay or the Trader. Cars sold in the Trader will never give you the selling price. Last car I bought through the Trader was asking $8k. I gave him $4500 cash and he jumped on it. Edmund's says the eBay car should sell between $15k and $18k. This is on a Toyota dealers lot in Washington DC. So if they don't pull a fast one, to save their butts on this one, we should see what the real value is of a 2 year old Prius with a 100k miles. It is at $6600 right now. If you watched car prices as I do you would see that most of the Prius never get close to the reserve. That is what makes this one unique it has no reserve.
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Replying to: gagrice (Nov 29, 2004 12:26 pm) I think what you said about "a car is worth what you can get someone else to pay for it" is absolutely true. But the fact is that here in the good ole' USA, we have a system called "Blue Book Value" that dictates a car's worth, like it or not, agree with it or not. Smart buyers do not go by prices on a "bad model" like E-Bay. If you want to buy a car unseen, then you are risk taker and deserve to either lose your money or get a good bonus if you find a bargain. Here is my main point, pay attention: "Just because you can get one yokel out of 280 million Americans to sell a Prius for $6600 does NOT MAKE THAT PRICE THE NORM." And my second major point: Any car, Hybrid or not, with 50K miles on it per year WILL LOSE MASSIVE AMOUNTS of value. That is an incredible, unusual amount of mileage that will cause an avalanche of depreciation.
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