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Coupes & Convertibles Cadillac XLR and XLR-V Cadillac XLR and XLR-V
199 messages, Last post on Jun 06, 2009 at 9:02 PM
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Replying to: 213xlrv (May 16, 2006 2:03 pm) Until you know why that extra weight is there or have experienced the car fully then you're just shooting in the dark here. Isn't that what you've been telling me about the XLR? There is no way that the SL is compromised by a few extra pounds to the point of which you hype it up because if it was ALL the sources that have reviewed the car and compared it to the XLR wouldn't have put the SL over the XLR. Clearly someone would see the XLR as being superior if it truly were. Now you can't have it both ways. If the automags say that the XLR is a good handling car that is a worthy competitor you can't turn around and say they don't know what they're talking about regarding the SL. No, you can't make a Bentley feel nimble to a discerning passenger. It's quite easy for a passenger to sense car dynamics without being behind the wheel. The Bentley can be surprising for its size and bulk, but neither will be disguised to even a mildly experienced driver -- or even a licenseless passenger who simply retained his or her high school physics. Something tells me you can with the person you claimed felt a huge difference between the SL and the XLR just by riding in the XLR. I suppose I should have hit the record button on the car's voice recorder to upload the unvarnished commentary. I've met a lot of people recently who are unhappy with their Merc. Probably so. There are lots of people unhappy with any car on the market, this is nothing new. Not even all Lexus owners are completely happy! The old recent prior M5 was in virtually a dead-heat with the CTS-v. That the new one half-a-model-cycle later is a little quicker is no surprise, especially given the price. When the next Cadillac is introduce half-a-model-cycle beyond the new M5, things will be even or exceeded again. Until it happens it doesn't mean much. The V10 is a pointless change, the car feels heavy once again, the power advantage is inaccessible in normal driving, and the current V is more involving. It's really not an interesting car other than as an abstraction, like an engineering concept with no known utility. Better to buy a sports car, or step up to something emotionally engaging like a Quattroporte Sport. Well I haven't driven the M5, I was just pointing out to that poster about the differences in performance and that that were indeed looking at the previous M5's numbers. Interesting you should bring up the Quattroporte, now that is nothing but 4-door Ferrari in all but name. Something we can agree on. Love that car! People who have moved from SLs to XLRs/XLR-Vs have not felt compromised by the Cadillac interior. They appreciate -- as I do -- its straightforward ergonomics, handsome design and honest materials. Metal, leather, cloth and plastic as appropriate to purpose. Carpet is the singular interior oversight, IMO. Everything else stands up to the Germans, and everyone else stands behind the Italians and perhaps Aston-Martin. Sorry, but this will never have any merit with me so no need to keep repeating it. The XLR has a cheapo interior compared to the Germans and calling the materials "honest" doesn't change it. You're spinning here. And BTW, M, it's clear the absurdity of Audi's aluminum unibody sedan coming in at about 4400 lbs. is completely lost on you. But what else can I expect from someone who thinks a surplus quarter ton of useless bulk in a 2-seat Mercedes is something to turn a blind eye to? Oh...forgot to mention I saw three more new gold-badged Mercs in the last 24 hours. Love to see the superior taste of that brand-seeking Mercedes crowd. It is equally clear to me that the reasons why the A8 would weigh that much is completely lost on you, especially if you're going to compare it to a relic like the Lincoln Towncar. None of this surprises me either when it comes from a person that can see the obvious cheap-out GM did on the XLR's interior compared to its rivals. Taste, design all of that is up for debate for sure, but the materials are cheap and that you can't hide or dismiss by saying that the materials are "honest". Since you're such a stickler for low-weight and obviously don't care about interior furnishings you should buy a Lotus Elise. Did I mention that the local Cadillac dealer has several DTS models with cloth tops sitting on their lawn? Good to see the blue-hair brand is still being true to its roots. I see you've mentioned the Allante in another post. That car was a piece of pretty junk! A fwd roadster with a 140hp V8 upon introduction and GM couldn't figure out why it failed miserably in the marketplace. The Allante was one of Cadillac's worst moments in history. When the R129 SL came upon the scene in 1990 it sealed the coffin of the Allante. Really, I don't see the problem. I think most of the carping about the interior is reflexive defensive criticism by people who don't like to admit the crediblity of Cadillac's technical achievements with this car, which threaten their view of the market order. No, I have given credit where it is due for Cadillac and their V series cars, its the nonsense about weight is where we disagree. The implication that someone buys or seeks out the XLR because of lower weight how that somehow makes these Cadillacs all-superior. How these Cadillacs are so much better in every respect because they're lighter when you're really ignoring the fact that luxury cars (which is what these cars are) are supposed to do more than just be agile or peform, they're supposed to pamper also. That is where the XLR falls down hard, it doesn't feel the part interior wise and that I maintain more important to the average buyer in this segment, not whether or not the car is tossable. That is what you simply don't get. How many people you think push these cars to know the difference to the point of seeking out a Cadillac over a Mercedes. Now in your case, seriously if that is what brought you to the XLR then that is ok, but this ongoing nonsense about weight is just that because these cars are more about luxury than they are running slaloms though both cars can do it fairly easily. M
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Replying to: 213xlrv (May 17, 2006 9:39 am) While I can't argue with your opinion of the ext/int designs of the SL/XLR I can, of course, disagree. I'm no fan of the "Mr. Peanut" headlights of the SL, but overally I find it to be a very handsome, elegant design. The interior may be a bit overwrought, but I prefer the flow/cockpit feel. And, to me, the XLR tail, while "chiseled" is no less flattering than the SLs rounded derriere. Beyond material choice, the desing of the XLR interior is what least impresses me about the car. The center stack is just too plain and obtrusive, a slab. Also, the vast and unadorned expanse of plastic facing the passenger. Just too much, inelegant. As I mentioned, the '06 upgrade of the XLR center stack helps immeasurably, imo. To me, the XLR is the most successful execution of the Caddy "Arts & Science" theme. Followed by the SRX (a handsome Station Wagon). The CTS started it all off, a wildly overdone design to me. The STS is a somewhat toned down CTS, dull. The C pillar back just looks very wrong to me. Nicer interior, though. But, too each. And, again, overall I find the XLR a desireable package (noting I've not driven either XLR or SL, why torture myself!) which is why I continue to hang around here. I look forward to XLR owners postings because one of these days... |
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Replying to: merc1 (May 17, 2006 10:41 pm) On the weight issue I am not shooting in the dark. I've driven the SL500, 600 and SL55. It's an informed observation. I elected to buy the XLR-v. I accept the weight penalty for the category of vehicle -- the XLR-v is 600 lbs heavier than the higher performance and less expensive Corvette Z06! Cadillac is setting the current standard for controlling weight penalty in such a car. The Z06 is on the same platform, and comparable to a Porsche in mass, so that's the baseline to establish how much weight penalty is necessary to accept for luxury retracting hardtop GT. The further quarter ton incurred by the SL is just useless, pointless, accumulated pork. We know why it's there. It's just that the XLR/XLR-v architecture demonstrates by its very existence the lack of good reason for it. It's 500 pounds of penalty no matter how you slice it. If I were claiming 1100 pounds of penalty compared to true sports cars, you'd have a point. But I'm not. I'm only pointing out the unmistakable flaw imposed by all that extra mass that has no purpose. It exists only because Mercedes is too lazy or complacent to engineer it out. I've driven all the cars. I surely can say that the auto mags don't know what they're talking about or that their priorities are a miss. Are you kidding???? You think the auto mag reviewers are beyond reproach somehow? What they write are nothing more authoritative than their subjective impressions. If they choose to ignore a 500 pound penalty that infects the entire experience of driving the car, that's there call. But it gets no special reverence from me. There's no spin in characterizing the XLR-v interior as "honest." It's what I think, plain and simple. I prefer it. I have 360 degrees of leather, sourced from a euro supplier who also supplies your brands. The plastics are comparable quality to anyone else's. The metal and wood touch points require no defense. And on design, the Cadillac wins. The rest of whatever difference you cite -- and you really haven't cited exactly what those differences are -- is ephemeral. But we agree Maserati knows how to make an interesting car that successful people want to spend time in. Good for that. However, you still miss the point about the aluminum Audi. I'm not suggesting a Town Car and an A8 are equivalent vehicles other than both being large 4 doors. But AWD or not, an aluminum unibody ought not to exceed 2 tons. That's just lazy engineering again. No one builds a 500hp car without performance in mind. So citing weight as a non-issue in the class is specious. The XLR-v has no shortage of "pampering" assets, yet it's dynamically more agile due in part to its lower mass. Sure, for lots of people these are nothing more than ego cruisers. I'm not interested in those people, and neither is Cadillac's V division. The marketing is clearly performance directed. In the XLR/XLR-v, Cadillac leveraged a very strong but lightweight world-class sports car platform from elsewhere in GM, and built a new take on the luxury retractable hardtop GT. It's sensationally effective and I'd feel much less progressive and entertained in the corpulent SL range. Phil
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Replying to: 213xlrv (May 18, 2006 4:52 pm) I've driven all the cars. I surely can say that the auto mags don't know what they're talking about or that their priorities are a miss. Are you kidding???? You think the auto mag reviewers are beyond reproach somehow? No of course I'm not suggesting that, but how can all of them be wrong about two competive cars is what I'm asking. You keep forgetting that there are many factors when evaluating 75-90K luxury GT cars, not just their handling how much weight they don't have. You're using this single viewpoint, something that most buyers don't care one whit about, to claim superiority for the Cadillac when in reality most people buying car of this ilk care about features, styling, luxury and other things with handling being in the mix for sure, but it isn't the primary criteria for these cars. There's no spin in characterizing the XLR-v interior as "honest." It's what I think, plain and simple. I prefer it. I have 360 degrees of leather, sourced from a euro supplier who also supplies your brands. The plastics are comparable quality to anyone else's. The metal and wood touch points require no defense. Sure there is because like I said before, design, looks all that jazz is debatable, but when I see cheapo parts from a 20K GM car in the 75K XLR there is a problem. Saying that the materials are "honest" is a cop out plain and simple. GM's plastics have never matched their competition in anything they've built, especially in their expensive cars like the XLR. But we agree Maserati knows how to make an interesting car that successful people want to spend time in. Good for that. Yeah its a interesting car - agreed. Not sure what you're trying to imply with the "successful people" part. Let me guess though, we're back to the Benz/BMW buyers are pretenders again? While Cadillac buyers are the real deal? However, you still miss the point about the aluminum Audi. I'm not suggesting a Town Car and an A8 are equivalent vehicles other than both being large 4 doors. But AWD or not, an aluminum unibody ought not to exceed 2 tons. Says who? Where is this written, in the Automotive Engineering Handbook? You won't allow yourself to possibly think what an A8 would weigh if it were not made from aluminum. Could they have done better with it overall in the weight department? Sure, but to say that Audi is lazy is the "specious" part. No one builds a 500hp car without performance in mind. So citing weight as a non-issue in the class is specious. True to a degree, but the problem is that in reality that statement isn't always that cut and dry. Just because a car has 500hp doesn't mean it has to be some type of lightweight either. You miss the point about the SL or XLR, they're GT cars not sports cars. Luxury sedans have 500hp nowadays and they aren't light either. Now because Cadillac decides to dress up a Corvette they're supposed to be considered some type of brilliant innovator? Not. The XLR-v has no shortage of "pampering" assets, yet it's dynamically more agile due in part to its lower mass. Sure, for lots of people these are nothing more than ego cruisers. I'm not interested in those people, and neither is Cadillac's V division. See this is my point exactly. How would you know who Cadillac's V division is interested in? You act like Cadillac's V series cars are seen at the local autocross and are only driving by the most elite real-world drivers in the country. This is nonsense because the XLR is indeed nothing more than another luxury GT crusier for the overwhelming majority of its buyers just like any other luxury GT in the price range. I can't believe you actually think that most or even a majority of XLR buyers look at the XLR like you do and that this somehow makes all the other cars in the class irrelevant or how all the rest are driven by pretenders and badge seekers. Buyers of the XLR-V and SL55 are probably a little more frisky at times than regular XLR and SL550 buyers sure, but they aren't racers either and most owers who pay 100K and 125K respectively for these cars aren't going to be ripping and racing all over the place. You might catch them taking a few ramps or curves at speed and doing a few high-speed runs on a good stretch of freeway, but this about what type of buyer Cadillac is and isn't interested in is just plain silly. The fact is that the XLR is a slow seller and Cadillac would love to sell one to anyone that wants one. Try selling this theory about who Cadillac is wanting to buy the XLR to a Cadillac salesman and see what the response is. M |
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From watching Ebaymotors auctions: This weekend a low mileage '05 w/no reserve (Atlanta area) appeared to go in the mid/high $40s. It appears that more the norm for '05 prices are now dropping into the $50s. A few '06 are being offered "Buy Now" price around the "Employee Pricing" of last year, ~$69-70k. Unfortunately, the stock market is falling a lot faster than XLR pricing...  
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then those are very lucky people, B/c the XLR seems to be holding its own in terms of pricing, GM is keeping volume low. Also, I bet you can get equally lucky with an SL, since there are so many of them. I prefer the style in side and out of the Cadillac, add in the weight advantage and mercedes becomes outdated. I wish the rest of GM's divisions could have such an advatage in the marketplace.
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Replying to: exalteddragon1 (Jun 24, 2006 11:02 am) As far as GM keeping volumes low, I don't think that is by choice. When the XLR debuted as an '04, they were building 23/week. Due to lack of demand (imho due in no small part to the wildly high msrp and, as perceived by some, an interior not suited to that high price point) production was basically halved to 12/week. There is no shortage of MB SL for sale, but I don't think they are depreciating quite as fast as the XLR. As per my posts in this thread, I too, like the style of the XLR. Not as much as the SL, to be honest. But given the $ advantage and relative exclusivity I'm considering it as my mid-life (well into it, by the way. Wife won't let me have a proper one, though!) crisis-mobile. |
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