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Coupes & Convertibles Cadillac XLR and XLR-V Cadillac XLR and XLR-V
199 messages, Last post on Jun 06, 2009 at 9:02 PM
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Replying to: 213xlrv (Mar 28, 2006 8:22 pm) Like I said a few posts back you not liking the car is fine, but to try and say the CTS-V is someone equal to the M5 or superior is ridiculous and a pointless exercise to say the least. There are cars I don't like either, but to do that much reaching in a wasted attempt to down a car like the M5 is really telling. Just say you hate the car because none of what you've said (some of which I can't believe you actually think) about the M5 has any merit or substance. M
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Replying to: merc1 (Mar 30, 2006 4:45 am) For anyone who wants a car configured exactly to the 5 and 7 series formulas, only a BMW will do, since no one else will ever build the identical car. Cadillac didn't set out to build identical formula cars. I think it's you making excuses for BMWs that are too one-dimensional in their intent, as sedans. Sorry, but a CTS-v doesn't get "beaten badly" by an M5. Especially when you consider the nearly $30K difference in price. But I already addressed the reasons why the cars are closer than you say, in the prior post. Certainly in North American conditions, the CTS-v formula has more tractable, more accessible power, and in a lighter more entertaining package. It's only missing some extra leather and dead weight compared to the M5, and the gap is even narrower compared to a lesser 5. If Cadillac equipped the CTS-v to an $81,000 retail level of gear and creature comforts, it wouldn't be difficult to beat the M. But there's no need to. The better driver in the "slower" car can beat the average driver in the one with 500hp sitting up there at 7750rpm. By the way, a sedan by definition is a jack of all trades. I don't expect a sedan to be anything but and the M5's "master of one thing" design is precisely what makes it flawed as a sedan. If I want a single-purpose master in the performance category, a Z06 sounds about right. STS sales down? Yes, modestly. So are E-Class Mercedes. In Cadillac's case, part of this reason is the new DTS which is taking some STS customers who a year prior bought a smaller car than they originally intended. The STS drop off is just a few hundred units. There are tuners for 6 figure cars, sure, but that's not what I referred to. There are a gazillion upholsterers who do nothing but repair or upgrade interiors. You can see instances of their work in everthing but Italian cars, where they can't make an improvement. There's no advantage to a surplus quarter ton in a GT car, no matter how much you'd like to sweep that under the rug. It's only penalty. Nothing positive can be achieved by that mass, especially since the price of the car suggests the engineering and materials would be more sophisticated to avoid the needles bulk. An interior is superficial and the differences you complain about are small. No doubt, some people will choose a car on that criterion alone. But then they're not really buying the car, are they? For an extra $40+ thou, I hope Mercedes can put a few more scraps of leather and metal in their interior! The XLR-v ergonomics are fundamentally correct however and they've come to market with something much more distinctive, better engineered for mass optimization, and more entertaining to boot, for enough less cash to buy a sports sedan. I expect there to be a little less of something somewhere. The interior is the logical place to dial back the opium den aesthetic. You'll love this: Today, between 7:35am and 8:30am Pacific Time, I saw 3 new (not even tags yet) Mercedes and 2 new BMWs with GOLD PLATED BADGING. Not enought? 10:07am, eastbound I-10 near 20th Street exit in Santa Monica. What do I see up ahead (and quickly behind)? Plain as day, a new, no-tags, greyish SL55 with GOLD PLATED BADGING and a gold-plated license plate frame. Tasteful. You just don't get around much, huh? Phil
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Replying to: merc1 (Mar 30, 2006 4:52 am) I don't hate the car, actually. I just think it's kind of useless. A sedan doesn't put your ass close enough to the driving wheels or get the mass optimized to give you a sporting experience, and it terrorizes the passengers if used as a performance machine. Brakes and handling? Fine. But, you know, an extra quarter ton does nothing to improve those either. What is it about the Germans lately and surplus quarter tons of useless mass?? If the M5 were $30,000 and aimed at the guy who can only afford one car, then OK. But it's $81,000. That buyer can afford variety and in a multi-car scenario, the M5 is just silly. The CTS-v is a better mix, especially in North America. Now the silliness of the M5 won't keep them from being sold, but you can be sure that far fewer than 20% of the people who buy an M5 understand the slightest whit of what they've bought. I don't find a couple of tenths or hundredths interesting or convincing if the central aesthetic (all of it -- appearance, sensation, driving feel, packaging) is alienating. Great, I can spend $81,000 or more but to extract the performance I allegedly bought, I have to spin the thing up like a crazed ricer. It's just one of those things. Remember, nobody sees a Maranello and concludes the driver is an ass, but nearly everybody has that first reaction to seeing a Ferrari 360/430. The M5 has that rep. BMW, on basis of their own communications, apparently perceives the M5 as the purest expression of their idea. It's all the more reason not to desire the car, and it's a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way from the friendly, competent, charm of the then-competent 2002. Phil |
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Replying to: anthonyp (Mar 29, 2006 5:43 pm) My .02 and strictly my theory from 20,000 feet. I have driven neither XLR or SL, but am familiar with both and wish either one would fall from the sky into my driveay bought and paid for. At this price point and type of car, for the majority of buyers, I think deciding factors in a purchase include: Prestige: A lifestyle statement. I've made it, this is my toy/reward. (or I'm leveraged to the hilt!  ) Style/design, both interior and exterior. A two seat convertible is a fashion statement, an accessory, a toy. Ride: For cruising the boulevard or blasting down the interstate. Handling: Just looking for the car to be able to reasonably negotiate the back roads for when you're trying to avoid the paparazzi... If the buyer simply wanted a fun, great handling two seat convertible: Miata (and now, maybe Solstice/Sky?). But that would'nt satisfy the "Prestige" factor. So, in the grand scheme, at this point in history, imho Mercedes beats Caddy in prestige and styling (not by much on the exterior, quite a bit on the interior). I can't comment on ride/handling. I have to line up more with Merc on the "weight" vs. "interior" shortcomings issue. Yes, extra tonnage is undesireable (in both car and myself  ), but I think to the buyers here that if the pleasantly plump SL500 has the smooth, quiet ride to go with the styling and prestige perceived with MB, it wins. The weight will never be an issue (as weight would be an issue to the handling maven's, but again they could go Miata, Z4...). To the buyer, the somewhat "downscale" XLR interior design is a bigger issue. When paying ~$70k + for a car, certain overall expectations must be met and a luxurious, well appointed interior (as well as a corresponding exterior) is a minimum daily requirement. And therein lies the rub with GM. They can't generally seem to put a full package on the road. To me, the XLR is a player, but at the wrong price point given the entire package. Cool exterior style, hard top convertible, great Northstar engine, lots of toys BUT the interior for the price of admission they're asking...? It is not a terrible interior, just shy of the $76k in look and feel. I think they improved it a bit with the '06 though. |
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Replying to: laurasdada (Mar 31, 2006 10:21 am) Prestige: No question that in 2006 Cadillac is playing from behind against the Germans and Italians. It's a wash with Lexus. Some Lexus buyers believe they are buying status and everyone else dismisses that as posing. Cadillac is actually well regarded now in some circles. However, I don't buy cars to telegraph my wealth or what I've achieved. In horsepower, money and success there's always someone with more anyway. I buy what I enjoy and in some measure what projects identity. No Mercedes could satisfy that for me. There are others like me and I really don't care whether that number exceeds the population of Mercedes brand seekers or not. I suppose on the contrary I prefer it is smaller. Style: Whether a 2-seat drop top is a toy or not depends on where you live. It undeniably has entertainment value but at times I've had sports cars as my only transportation. But style is a prime mover and on that front for me the XLR-v wins by a knockout over the squashed, bloated, long-overhangs SL. Others may disagree. Ride: You're probably correct that for some people this kind of car is expected to be a good cruiser. I'm not one of them. The cruiser character of the SL is precisely what excuses its surplus bulk and compromises it in the majority of driving. I strongly prefer the edgier, more sporting set of the XLR-v, and when it is in standard auto mode, the ride is soft enough for gliding around town on the no-longer-smooth streets of Los Angeles. Handling: I do agree that the status poseur only asks for reasonable handling competence, and that buyer likely has very little experience with a true sports car. However, there is a sub-segment of this market, in which I include myself, for whom handling is expected to be as close to sports-car-like as possible given the mass necessitated by its GT luxury retracting hardtop configuration. Hence, an XLR-v weighs about 600 pounds more than the performance-oriented Corvette that shares its platform. I agree that for the market-at-large today, Mercedes beats Cadillac in perceived prestige. If someone if buying a car to announce their success to the world and they want a specific recognition and response to what they are telegraphing, then Mercedes will do that and Cadillac may or may not. However for a more secure, confident person, this wouldn't matter at all. So it comes to the interior. No doubt, making it more....something...would overcome a certain kind of buyer's objections. At $76K I don't see the problem with the XLR interior and I've been inside everything it competes with. All the $60K - $80K cars have plastic and leather and wood inside, and none of it looks crafted. It's all mass produced and looks it. On the arrangement of functions, ergonomics, communications, the XLR is a specific aesthetic that I and many others like for its straightforwardness and simplicity. The XLR-v significantly upgrades the touch points and cosmetics on the same ergonomics. If I were the product planner, I'd say put the XLR-v interior in the XLR and then let's look at how we can boost the prestige visuals and tactiles in the V. Especially given the higher-than-average markup in the car. BUT, that's a nice-to-have and the way it is presents no reason not to consider or buy the car. It's quite convincing and accommodating the way it is. Given the serious gap in price between equal equipment SL55 and XLR-v, if upgrading the interior further meant losing any aspect of the drivetrain or dynamics, I'd be begging to keep the interior as is. Now, as a business move, if I were running GM I would consider pricing for the break-even point plus dealer profit to disrupt the market. The fact that they didn't do that is a business decision, right or wrong, that isn't a reflection on the car itself. The fact is, its pricing is more than competitive for what it delivers and the experience the driver gets. In introducing the V into this rarefied market, Cadillac is asserting that the criteria for selection in the class have room for alternative thinking. I can say that actually driving the cars has the potential to change your views about what matters and what doesn't in this class. Cadillac's challenge is to make sure the V gets evaluated. I approached this with no loyalty to GM, and in fact had never bought a new GM vehicle before this. A lot of people ask me for advice on cars and in this class, my message is, if you think you are working from a short list of one -- Mercedes SL -- you settling for less entertainment than you could be getting at the price. Phil
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Replying to: 213xlrv (Mar 31, 2006 7:16 pm) My comments were a generalization, as I stated. People buy a car for many different reasons and none of them are wrong. Because they are buying the car they want with their money for themselves (as did you). Whether it is prestige, style, economy, power, ride/handling or a pretty color, if they buy they are correct. Nothing wrong with that. I appreciate the effort Caddy is making to once again (re)establish a brand identity. While the CTS was crossed off my list early, it did seem to signify a new beginning. At least it is bold (and a good drive, from what I've read). As you've stated, while each Caddy may not be the "best" in its segment they are being compared/contrasted with the established peers and are fairing well. Finally, viable alternatives. However, I believe that their "ambitious " pricing has hurt their efforts a bit. Better cars, same discounts/rebates/trunk money/"Employee Pricing" to actually align the pricing with the market. But I'm no business genius, so what do I know? I'm just a car guy and consumer  When it's time for the evil wife to upgrade her Lexus RX, I'm sure we'll check out the SRX (but again, that interior...I'm sorry. I know they all use plastics/woods/leathers but some mfg. just know how to put them to better use. To me, Audi and Lexus craft some lovely interiors. MB, too). I continue to window shop (used) XLRs, one never knows... EMC could hit $100/share again, right??? Keep enjoying the Vs. Post any interesting tidbits, reliability/lack thereof, economy, performance, notes from the road. Unless, of course, you don't have time because you're out enjoying the ride! Three days to the beginning of the Red Sox valiant march to glory! |
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Replying to: laurasdada (Mar 31, 2006 10:21 am) I am one of the fortunate to have the opportunity to purchase a world class luxury roadster. For my requirements, MB SL500,Cadillac XLR and Lexus SC430 were the final three for serious consideration. I should note, Porsche 911, Chevy's Corvette, Jaguar's XK8, BMW's 650i Maserati's Spyder convertible were reviewed and I liked many aspects of what these cars offered. But for all that these cars offered and let me say they are wonderful products, they all were missing a key requirement, hard top drop ease. And quite honestly I was not looking for the ultimate sports car, but instead a GT luxury roadster. First, I would be happy with any of these luxury roadsters sitting in my garage. In my evaluation I ranked Cadillac's XLR best in class luxury roadster. The Lexus SC430 was eliminated after the first test drive. My wife's comment nailed it, "drives kinda like a Lexus sedan" and for me the overall styling was not my favorite. But Lexus has a fine product and we have owned two of their sedans and high quality with a big "Q", Lexus wins hands down. For the SC430, we found it to be a well wonderful car, but not very sporty feeling. So it ranked last. However, the Lexus SC430 was the bargain of the group, coming in at a little over $67,000 The real contest for me came between the MB SL500 and Caddy XLR. For overall styling, (exterior/interior) XLR wins. For me when I walked up to the SL500 I liked what I saw, but it did not excite me, good styling overall and interior design nice, but nothing that grabbed me. But when I walked around the XLR, WOW is what came to mind. What a beautiful, exotic contemporary design. I could see myself peeking at it in my garage. And the interior design is beautiful with a fresh, uncluttered, modern styling that adorns the touch areas with luxury level leather, wood and aluminum. In comparison the SL500 is more traditional, with very good materials, but a bit busy design with lots of buttons when the SL500 is optioned to the level of the XLR. The SL500 priced a little over $108,000 compared to XLR' $78,000 price tag. But quite honestly, this was not the key factor. The key factor was the drive of the SL500. The SL500 is a very heavy feeling and interesting softer in its ride on some road conditions than the XLR. The XLR on the other hand, has better balance of feel and ride with a more sporty to drive sensation compared to the SL500. Let me state, none of these luxury roadsters offer the type of feedback that other high end sports cars offer and that is part of its appeal to me. The race track is not a weekend affair or of interest for me. From the point of view of specifications, both products are to close to split hairs about. Other design approaches become evident when comparing the XLR and SL500. From a driver standpoint the systems integration is better implemented in the XLR when compared to the SL500. For example there are no keys for the XLR (only for emergency). No key hole slot in the doors and as a matter of fact, the doors release electronically, no door handles of the conventional style. I know this may sound like a small item, but it added to the exotic design of the exterior. The same goes for the interior as well, no door handle release to pull, just a small round button and the door is opened for you. The Heads Up display works very effectively and once you become accustom to having this feature, it becomes an irritation to drive without it. All in all. I view the difference between Cadillac's XLR and MB's SL500 as matter of contemporary versus traditional. There is one other factor to consider, how the cars interfaces with its driver. This topic is not talked about very much, but was another edge I gave to the Cadillac designers in that, the XLR was the most intuitive in everyday use and created a ease of use better than the SL500. The SL500 made you feel you needed to review the owners manual from cover to cover before you can use its high tech features. On the other hand XLR's integration makes you feel a quick reference card is all you need. In other words MB SL500 forces you to adapt to it versus the XLR adapts to you. For example the act of making or receiving a phone call. In the XLR, you press a button and simply say Call and provide the number you wish to connect to. If you say Dial, you simple say the key word and the numbers you have stored are completed. This all without taking you eyes off the road. Another example is when you wish to change the XM station or switch to your favorite MP3, CD or DVD disc collection, simply select from your steering wheel buttons and view the results through the Heads Up display, it is seamless. This is one area where the XLR is far ahead of its competition in its design approach. No small feat when you consider the amount of technology within these vehicles. I would expect the next generation of the SL500 and Lexus's new $100,000 GT car will have me re-evaluating my XLR decision. But for now, Cadillac's XLR is, in my opinion the best in class luxury roadster.
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Replying to: 213xlrv (Mar 30, 2006 4:37 pm) And what you're not getting is that the STS isn't superior (like you originally stated) to either one of them at what they're designed to do. Who said that a Cadillac wasn't an "alternative"? Of course they're an "alternative", but they don't best the BMWs at what they're designed for, 5 being sport and 7 being luxury. Why is that so hard to grasp? Just because Cadillac wants to be the odd man out and size their cars differently in a futile attempt to cover more segments isn't BMW's fault. For anyone who wants a car configured exactly to the 5 and 7 series formulas, only a BMW will do, since no one else will ever build the identical car. Cadillac didn't set out to build identical formula cars. I think it's you making excuses for BMWs that are too one-dimensional in their intent, as sedans. I think you've made nothing but excuses for Cadillac since day one. Sorry, but a CTS-v doesn't get "beaten badly" by an M5. Especially when you consider the nearly $30K difference in price. But I already addressed the reasons why the cars are closer than you say, in the prior post. Certainly in North American conditions, the CTS-v formula has more tractable, more accessible power, and in a lighter more entertaining package. It's only missing some extra leather and dead weight compared to the M5, and the gap is even narrower compared to a lesser 5. If Cadillac equipped the CTS-v to an $81,000 retail level of gear and creature comforts, it wouldn't be difficult to beat the M. But there's no need to. The better driver in the "slower" car can beat the average driver in the one with 500hp sitting up there at 7750rpm. I can't believe you're being serious here. The CTS-V gets its lugnuts handed to it by the M5. You can argue all day long about how badly the CTS-V gets beaten by the M5, but the in the end the result is the same....M5 wins. Period. There's no advantage to a surplus quarter ton in a GT car, no matter how much you'd like to sweep that under the rug. It's only penalty. Nothing positive can be achieved by that mass, especially since the price of the car suggests the engineering and materials would be more sophisticated to avoid the needles bulk. An interior is superficial and the differences you complain about are small. No doubt, some people will choose a car on that criterion alone. But then they're not really buying the car, are they? For an extra $40+ thou, I hope Mercedes can put a few more scraps of leather and metal in their interior! The XLR-v ergonomics are fundamentally correct however and they've come to market with something much more distinctive, better engineered for mass optimization, and more entertaining to boot, for enough less cash to buy a sports sedan. I expect there to be a little less of something somewhere. The interior is the logical place to dial back the opium den aesthetic. Yawn, yet when the two are compared the SL gets the nod in the handling department. I have to say your second post reads like nothing ever seen before. No one but a GM apologist could come up with so much nonesense about the M5 and so many excuses in an attempt to put over a clearly outdone Cadillac CTS-V. Most 5 series owners wouldn't know what to do with performance in a car if the instructions were written on the windshield. Really? I guess the average senior-citizen in a STS or DTS would? You seem to live in your own little world when it comes to Cadillac like their buyers are more informed about their cars and that Cadillac has all of a sudden become a performance brand. STS sales down? Yes, modestly. So are E-Class Mercedes. In Cadillac's case, part of this reason is the new DTS which is taking some STS customers who a year prior bought a smaller car than they originally intended. The STS drop off is just a few hundred units. Wrong. An 18 percent YTD drop-off compared to last year isn't modest, especially in the 2nd model year of the car! That ain't "modest" that is a problem for a new model. The E-Class is only down 3 percent YTD compared to last year, and it has been on the market since 2003. You trying to call that STS' drop in sales modest sounds/reads like all these recent press releases from GM in which they talk about their "turnaround" working while they bleed market share and sales every month like a cut pig. M
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Replying to: jlmartin (Apr 01, 2006 9:51 am) While the interior of the SC430 is still one of my fave's, the exterior is a very distant third, imo, to both the XLR and the SL. Many people downgrade the SC as not being sporty enough, but I don't believe Lexus ever marketed the SC as a sports car, rather a GT, sport tourer. I, too, would (most probably) only consider a hardtop convertible. Luckily, over the next 18 months it looks like those ranks will grow offering true(er) four seating capability which, for my family, will be a good thing. Still, the XLR catches my eye. The kids can walk! |
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As premium fuel here in the Boston area rapidly approaches $3/gallon, anyone care to post their XLR mpg? A child of "energy crisis" and "fuel shortage" of the '70s, economy is always on my mind. And wallet...
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