Last post on Nov 22, 2010 at 8:13 AM
You are in the Honda Accord
What is this discussion about?
Honda Accord, Diesel
#439 of 749 Re: Just rumors at this point... [ruking1]
Oct 28, 2007 (11:47 pm)
The long standing trend of German cars being of the highest quality and dependability has passed and the Japanese have now taken over this role. This is not just my opinion. It is the opinion of every person I know who has owned both a German car and a Japanese car. I have owned 5 MBs starting back in 1976 with a 240D. I kept it for 19 years and it gave good service for the total of 119,000 miles I drove it, but it was no where a perfect as several Japanese cars I have since owned including a 1994 Accord, a 1995 Toyota Camry, A 1999 Toyota Avalon and now a 2002 Lexus LS430. While the engines and transmissions on the 5 MBs I owned never had one problem it was other strange things which did. One item was the heater/AC blower motor on the 240D. The entire dash board had to be taken apart to replace it including the steering wheel. Cost of this repair was $750 to replace a $200 electrical motor. Then there was the rust, the power window motors and a variety of other electrical items. Sad to say the electrical problems seem to plague the VWs also as well as BMW and AUDI.
On the other hand my ACCORD ran for over 100,000 miles not ever having single problem. My Camry ran 120,000 miles again without a problem and the person who bought it still has not had a problem after 180,000 miles. My Avalon which I am about to replace has 154,000 miles all without a single problem. The LEXUS LS430 has had one problem with the passenger side window coming unglued from its frame. Other then that one problem it has been trouble free for 80,000 miles.
The Germans were accostomed to building cars regardless of cost, especially the MBs and BMWs. But when Japan started to build high quality lux cars to compete with the German makes at a far lower price that is when the German quality started to decline and their decline has not stopped. You need not look further then Consumer's Reports to discover which brands are relatively trouble free and most reliable and which are not.
Just because a car maker places a longer warranty on their cars does not automatically mean they are better. Chrysler just came out with a lifetime warranty. Do you think that alone has increased the quality and reliability of Chrysler products? I think you know the answer to that one.
As for a Diesel in a Honda first off that engine will be produced in Europe and not by Honda. I am not sure but I think it is either made by VOLVO or a French car maker. Not sure but I do know that Honda will not be making the engine at the beginning. It appears that the Japanese have never been for developing a diesel for their cars.
As for the price of Japanese cars in Europe, the protectionist policies of the ECM have priced them out of the market so it is no wonder that they do not sell well in Europe. Here in the USA where we have little or no import fees on cars one can clearly see which cars sell the best in the worlds biggest car market. If the German car makers were as good as you say they are and if Hondas were as bad as you say they are then VWs and all the other German makes would dominate the car market here. THEY DO NOT!
#440 of 749 Re: Just rumors at this point... [holew]
Oct 29, 2007 (7:01 am)
Given the fact I own them side by side, Honda VW and compare them directly, I think your characterization of my characterizations and comparisons are way off base, indeed misunderstood and at worst mischaracterized. Again this is NOT to DISCOUNT YOUR experiences. However from your writings, you compare them IN directly. Your example of your MB with 119,000 miles and 19 year ownership means an AVERAGE of 6,263 miles per year or 522 miles per mo. Pardon me for saying this, but your operative behaviors say you bought it more to keep around than drive it!!!?? In that case, you would have done far better with less expensive make/model, as they can sit around just as well as a more expensive vehicle and do so a much cheaper price. Indeed again operatively you have learned from those mistakes and now have bought less expensive cars. Indeed you might agree with me, the cheaper model does sit around just as well as the expensive cars and also does low miles, cheaper. Again not to even hint that this is invalid, but most are not addressing the side by side real time comparison.
Again even as if I say it, no one has directly addressed the 2x FASTER wear of the Civic machine than the VW. Not a peep about that costing MORE, other than "SURVEY SAID"!!!! (Japanese cars being better) Honda as well as Toyota are fairly well known to cheap out on things such as consumables: i.e., brake pads, rotors, alignments, and tires. So I do not know what that says about quality and cost to most folks. Hopefully I have been clear as to what I think. At the same time, if that is alright with folks that pay real money, to that extent, it is not my problem when they do. I am basically saying mine is not as durable as the Jetta. For some reason folks are denying that. So it might be easy to conclude that it does not matter much to a larger majority of folks who pay real money for cars, as long as they keep the " perceptions" alive and folks keep buying. So yes, I can reiterate folks are not addressing the side by side comparison, but it is also fairly obvious even to them, they are not addressing what I am REALLY saying.
What consumable parts are necessary to execute 500,000 miles? In the Jetta's case, the SWAG: 2.5/3 rotors/brake pad changes, 4/5 tire changes, 5 alignments, 20 engine oil and filter changes, 4/5 timing belt/water pump intervals, 2/3 suspension parts changes. Civics? Probably a min of 2x for most stuff. Of course the more normal that folks do is to buy 5 new cars in that same space of mileage.
#441 of 749 This topic is NOT...
by kirstie_h HOST
Oct 29, 2007 (8:15 am)
Diesels vs anything else. The discussion exists to talk about the Accord diesel, specifically. It's getting awfully hostile and personal in here, with a lot of "smack talk" challenging tones.
Further posts along those lines are subject to removal without notice.
#442 of 749 Re: Diesel Accord [moparbad]
Oct 29, 2007 (9:47 am)
Will the '09 Diesel Accord be in BOTH the Sedan and Coupe?
Please email: kmil123msn.com
#443 of 749 Re: Diesel Accord [kmil]
Oct 29, 2007 (10:07 am)
I would bet against Honda putting diesel in the coupe anytime soon.
#444 of 749 Re: Honda Diesels [ruking1]
Oct 29, 2007 (10:13 am)
"Friends tell me the gasser Pilot/MDX get (when lucky) 20 mpg? It will be a hit for this best in class vehicle to get 27 mpg with a diesel. It would be killer to get 30-35 mpg."
If a gas Pilot gets 20 mpg, no way a diesel would get 30-35 mpg. Diesel engines are typically 20-30% more efficient than gas. That would give a range of mpg from 24-27. To get 30 mpg would require a 50% increase in efficiency. Not gonna happen.
#445 of 749 Re: Diesel Accord [robertsmx]
Oct 29, 2007 (10:14 am)
I bet the production of the diesel engine will be in low numbers for at least the first year and maybe for several years.
That could mean it might be offered on only one trim level (such as EX-L) and street price difference vs a well discounted gas Accord can never be recouped with gas savings.
If the diesel is produced in low volumes, it will be as hard or harder to buy than a Honda Fit.
If the MSRP is $2000 higher than a gas equivalent, but absolute best street price after negotiation of diesel is MSRP, VS $2000 below MSRP (in 2009) for best negotiated price for gas model, the net price difference is really $4000.
How long will it take to save $4000 worth of gas?
#446 of 749 Re: Diesel Accord [robertsmx]
Oct 29, 2007 (10:30 am)
A relative buying opportunity may exist at introduction of the Diesel.If gas prices are 2.75 at introduction Honda may price it at a smaller premium vs. the gassers. Economic slowing could also keep the price increment manageable.
#447 of 749 Re: Diesel Accord [blufz1]
Oct 29, 2007 (10:51 am)
As jaxs1 pointed out, Honda is likely to take baby steps probably also dictated by production capacity. The premium is not necessarily dictated by demand, but by cost of production. It seems to be a reason Honda doesn't seem to be planning on putting diesel in Fit, instead go hybrid route in a like sized car which is expected to have a $1700 premium over equivalent gasoline version. OTOH, a dedicated tiny diesel might be a more expensive proposition for Honda besides having to design the car around it.
It will be the trim level that will dictate the price. With LX/LX-P trimmings, it might cost $22K-$24K. If leather, moon roof and the expensive stuff... it might top out at $27K before you add NAV (which will take it to $29K).
#448 of 749 Re: Diesel Accord [jaxs1]
Oct 29, 2007 (10:55 am)
True! Essentially Honda had that experience with their Civic Hybrid.(7,400 premium in my case) I think they would be unwilling to repeat the same mistake with the Accord iCTDI. So, I would be inclined to agree with Blufz1. Introductory positioning will in the worst case, have/be a (Honda) marketing cost. As KDhSpyder has stated, (once committed) Honda needs to make diesel work.
In hindsight, a $246. VW TDI premium, over VW gassers, while literally AGONIZED over by folks at the time, seems like a total no brainer, in light of the $4,000 (100k/30/50= 3333-2000=1333 gal *3=) fuel savings over 100,000 miles and up to 4,600 dollars higher resale value. Spend the $246.premium to save a min of 4k to a max of 8,600?