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395 messages, Last post on Aug 29, 2007 at 7:27 AM
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Replying to: dworthen (Sep 22, 2004 10:55 am) |
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It's been discussed several times before. The key thing if that diesel stands less to gain to the addition of extra $ in hardware is not as attractive. As for car mags, c&d is my least favorite. They have a political stance i don't agree with, it bleeds into the articles and is clear in the editorials. dave
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Replying to: dhanley (Sep 22, 2004 3:45 pm) They trashed the Echo more. Did you see the points that they gave Echo? Anyway, the result speaks for itself. "The key thing if(is) that diesel stands less to gain to the addition of extra $ in hardware is not as attractive." There is a chance that we might see diesel-electric hybrid soon. The costs are going to be high since both diesel and hybrid technologies add extra cost to the vehicle. Diesel might need to couple with hybrid option to survive! Diesel has a very tough road ahead through time. Time is not in favor of diesel. The most difficult problem diesel must face is it's emission, especially NOx. It is critical for diesel to achieve ultra low NOx emission or diesel will not survive in the passenger car industry. In Europe, modern common rail, direct injection, high compression, turbo charged diesel engines will need Low Sulfer Diesel fuel to meet the soon-to-be Euro IV standard. In order for those modern diesels to reach US, they must cut their emission by more than two times than Euro IV or Federal government would not allow the sale of any diesel cars! There are technologies in the work from Toyota, Nissan, Honda and the big 3 US companies to meet those stringent US emission requirements. Toyota is in the lead now. Toyota can barely meet Tier 2 Bin 5 with their D-CAT technology when the filter is fresh when used with Ultra Low Sulfer Diesel(<15ppm) fuel. D-CAT must be tested for 50,000 miles and must maintain the minimum emission requirement in order to be allowed to be sold in US. At 100,000 miles, it must meet another requirement(allows more NOx) and so on. This diesel emission reduction technology costs as much as a full hybrid option and reduces fuel economy by a few percent! If the particle filter and catalytic for diesel can not meet US emission by 2007(just 3 years left), then the only way I see diesel to reduce further NOx emission is by going diesel-electric hybrid! Hybrid option for diesel would enable the ICE to be smaller, which in turn, burns less fuel, which in turn, reduce emission. BTW, Euro V is suppose to take effect by 2008 which will require diesel cars to reduce it's NOx emission by 1/5th of the Euro IV requirement! Dennis
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Replying to: usbseawolf2000 (Sep 22, 2004 6:09 pm) Diesel engines cost more for the same size, but with their greater torque and efficiency you can use a smaller diesel than comparable gas engine. I think it would be reasonable for a Civic Hybrid sized vehicle to use a 2-cyl. diesel with turbo combined with a drive system like Toyota's HSD to keep it in at peak torque when accelerating. That would boost mileage, which would reduce emissions. Brian |
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Replying to: usbseawolf2000 (Sep 22, 2004 6:09 pm) I especially liked the part about emissions system costing as much as the hybrid drivetrain. Can you please reference that specific fact? dave
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Replying to: dhanley (Sep 22, 2004 9:53 pm) Sure. The following is some of what that recent report said. "....Recently, hybrid costs have come down and the few hybrid makes available are selling well. Diesels have made great strides in reducing particulate and nitrogen oxide emissions, and are likely though not certain to meet future standards,” concluded the authors of the report." They must be referring to Prius and HCH which are selling well. "The study forecast that diesel engines should be able to meet Tier 2 emission standards. The added cost of emission control systems, however, will make the cost penalty in diesels comparable to that in hybrid vehicles...." That's just the emission control systems alone. Why not drop the whole emission filtering system and go with diesel-electric hybrid? This way, you gain more efficiency and lower the emission, killing two birds with one stone. "The major obstacle preventing diesels from wider entry into the US market are the stringent NOx emission limits in the federal Tier 2 and, even more so, the California LEV II emission standards. For new passenger cars and light light-duty trucks (LDT), Tier 2 standards phase-in beginning in 2004, with full implementation by 2007." Diesel's situation is much worse than anyone realized! It seems to me like Diesel is an endangered fuel/drivetrain which is in need of hybrid to the rescue. Diesel-electric price will be high but will it worth double the extra cost? Web link to the news: http://www.dieselnet.com/news/0409doe.html The US Department’s of Energy (DOE) Oak Ridge National Laboratory Report: http://www-cta.ornl.gov/cta/Publications/pdf/ORNL_TM_2004_181_Hyb- - - - - ridDiesel.pdf |
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Replying to: dieselbreath (Sep 22, 2004 9:45 pm) Doesn't Diesel has lower rev RPM, therefore, lower horsepower? The torque peak is high but has the "sling shot effect" because torque curve(blue) is like a mountain.  In comparison, Atkinson cycle gas engine used in Prius has super flat torque curve(below) with consistence horsepower incline.  Dennis |
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Replying to: usbseawolf2000 (Sep 23, 2004 5:50 am)
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Replying to: robertsmx (Sep 23, 2004 6:48 am) It sure makes the hybrid ECU's job much easier to control transition between ICE and electric. It is also important to be able to split power at a consistence manner. You don't want situations where HSD suddenly requires more power and ICE can't provide enough because the RPM that currently at has low torque. Dennis
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Replying to: usbseawolf2000 (Sep 23, 2004 6:58 am)
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